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IBM Wide Area Connector RS232D  Serial Adapter

Volt levels

By 2Pansy - usenet poster


I imagine that NMEA signals are 0 and 5 Volt
while RS-232 levels are +9 and -9 Volt.
How come that it works plugging NMEA GPS-signal
into my laptop??s serial input ?
(Sorry if this has been discussed earlier!)

Per Olof

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Solution #1
posted on Aug 11, 2005
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Pasty

Pasty - usenet poster

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Well, yes I did leave the details out, as I thought they would tend to
obscure the the point that I was trying to make.  Which voltage level is a
"mark" and which is a "space", is somewhat immaterial to the discussion at
hand.  But if you really want to get into it, we can start talking about
current loops and opto-isolated connections and what constitutes a "mark"
and a "space" for those, etc etc.


Yes, RS232D receivers are required to work over the full plus and minus
input voltage range.  This is actually trivial to do.  If you look at the
internal schematic of a typical RS232 line receiver, you'll see why.
Although they typically operate on a single +5V, or +3.3V supply, they can
tolerate excursions well beyond the power supply limits in both the positive
and negative, at the inputs.  A small point of clarification.  Although
RS232D drivers may not be REQUIRED to generate plus and minus voltage
swings, but outside of GPS receivers, I've not seen one that didn't.  Even
amongst GPS receivers, it seems that only the handheld GPS' are the ones
that don't generate true bipolar (+ and -)levels.  Every "mouse" type GPS
receiver that I've examined, does generate true bipolar levels.

When you say "TRUE BIG BLUE", to what equipment are you referring?.
Certainly IBM Aptiva PCs have had RS232D compliant serial ports for a very
long time.  It wouldn't surprise me at all, to hear that IBM mainframes were
still only RS232C compliant.

John Galvin

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Solution #2
posted on Aug 11, 2005
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lawyer

lawyer - usenet poster

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<very big grin> I see you also spend time with industrial serial
communications ...



I'm now trying to remember what I've worked with that used cmos
drivers for async output, and which gave XT AT etc, and thier
notebooks fits.  It was before I started playing with gps and got my
GPS III.  All my 232 to 422/485 adapters are bipolar ont he 232 side
.. it's not that.  Man this old age is terrible; I DON'T REMEMBER.

The series b4 the Aptiva ... PS1, PS2, XT AT, early thinkpads ... I
think?

George

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Solution #3
posted on Aug 11, 2005
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maartenw

maartenw - usenet poster

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I checked out your 232 section on your site:
http://joe.mehaffey.com/rs232c .htm

I'll repeat it again that I don't recall a mandatory TTL compatibility,
however nearly every chip is designed for TTL cheaters. You may find that
some of the more recent chips require closer to the 3V limit, which is
actually bad for the emap users [assuming the emap just goes from 0 to the
battery voltage.]

Regarding sucking power out of the 232 port, this is a very sticky subject.
There is absolutely no spec for this. For one of the chips I designed, I
decided to spend a day and survey the mouse market, with the intent to make
a spec, which you can read here:
http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/ar pdf/1066.pdf on page 10. [This was not the
chip for which the test was done, if you are a stickler for details. This
particular chip can supply 6ma from each transmitter simultaneously.] None
of the mice drew equal current from both the positive and negative rails,
but I made this worse case test just to be safe. While the data sheet says
10 mice were tested and all 10 passed, it is not out of the realm of
posibilities that 11 mice were tested, one didn't work, so that mouse was
tossed out of the test. This is known as marketing. ;-)

Note that desk top computers really don't use these less than beefy 232
chips. You find them in the notebooks and PDAs.

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Solution #4
posted on Aug 11, 2005
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herself

herself - usenet poster

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I've designed 232 chip using EIA/TIA232E, and don't recall a mandatory
positive threshold. In fact, there are 232 chips that use both positive and
negative threshold to see if anything is attached to the port. This is how
the AutoShutdown feature works.

That all said, most 232 chips will accept positive trip points.

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Solution #5
posted on Aug 11, 2005
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Bomber

Bomber - usenet poster

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Hi Gariac,
It has been a lot of years ago that lots of us young engineers asked the
EIA to change the RS232 spec so it could be connected to TTL signals for
"testing".  Here is a bit of information that is posted on our website
that includes info about the RS232C signal level thresholds.

Joe Mehaffey
--
Got a Question about GPS technology?  Looking for a GPS FAQ site?
See:  http://joe.mehaffey.com

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Solution #6
posted on Aug 11, 2005
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kcw573

kcw573 - usenet poster

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I agree, but think you left out a little and made it possibly
confusing ... a "1" is valid from -3 to -15, a "0" from +3 to +15.

I was aware of the D, but didn't know this was in it; does it require
accepting the negative signals even if it doesn't generate them?

IBM stuck by it for a long time; TRUE BIG BLUE serial ports have a
problem with the 0 and 5 volt signals ... at least until 3 or 4 years
ago; I'm not sure since.

George

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Solution #7
posted on Aug 11, 2005
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Lizzy

Lizzy - usenet poster

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Per:

Once upon a time there was RS232C that had threshold voltages of +-3 volts,
for high and low going signals respectively.  Later came RS232D.  In this
spec, the thresholds were moved to positive voltages only.  So, 0 and 5
volts will work just fine, if you have a serial input that conforms to the
RS232D spec.  I haven't run across any serial ports that used the old RS232C
thresholds, in some 15 years.  That doesn't mean there aren't any out there.
Many of the ICs used for serial line receivers can be configured for
positive only, or +- voltage thresholds.

John Galvin

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Solution #8
posted on Aug 11, 2005
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pawa

pawa - usenet poster

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Most pc serial ports will accept the 0 to 5 volt swing or even less in
some cases.  RS-232 is actually +/- 12 volts but many devices these days
come no where near these numbers.

dale

--
For GPS data see: Joe -- http://joe.mehaffey.com
Peter -- http://www.vancouver-webpages. com/peter/
Karen -- http://www.gpsy.com/gpsinfo/
Dale -- http://users.cwnet.com/dalede

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