Hi and welcome to FixYa I am Kelly. I read everything that you have done and the one statement that water is coming out the front tells me that the evaporator drain is clogged with either ice or debris. Also the shiny ice cubes but that can be a matter of a 35 degree temp... however, it can also be the icemaker has issues. At this time I doubt it because usually if there is a an icemaker problem you will have no ice production at all. Given the freezer temp is now at 35 deg F, I seriously doubt you any ice production at all at this time. You have probably noticed that the face of the refrigerator cabinet were the doors mate to the unit were HOT to the touch. (or warmer than usual)
Here is what you should try first:
Gain access to your defrost control in the overhead of the fresh food compartment. Item 13 of this link:
http://www.appliancepartspros.com/partsearch/model.aspx?model_id=47965&diagram_id=28494302#d28494302
Using this picture you will jumper L1 and Test of the control board to initiate a defrost cycle.
http://www.applianceaid.com/image/mayadaptive-defrost2.jpg If the defrost circuit is complete the defrost cycle will begin. The cycle should terminate in about 45 minutes. Keep in mind if the evaporator drain is clogged, this will result in a water mess that needs to be tended to.
If the cycle starts and finishes the problem is most likely the control board. If the defrost cycle does NOT start then there is a problem with one of the following:
Defrost heating element:
Defrost Bi-metal thermostat
Wiring:
Additionally if the Bi-metal thermostat failed as a result of an internal short the unit may start the defrost cycle and never terminate the cycle.
You can check continuity of the defrost element by disconnecting the defrost control connector and reading the YELLOW wire to WHITE/BLK. It must read continuity.
You check the Bi-Metal defrost thermostat by reading the RED wire to the WHITE/BLK of the chassis connector of the defrost control board. This also reads through the termperature control so if you read an open the problem can be the temp control OR the Bi-metal thermostat. To make sure it is the bi-metal thermostat if you read an open... Jumper RED to BLUE on the temp control...if it still reads open after jumpering the temp control the Bi-metal thermostat is bad.
All of this wil eliminate the adaptive defrost control and the defrost circuit as the problem.
A defective PTC relay / thermal overload will cause the compressor NOT to run. If this ends up being a suspected failure change out bot the PTC relay and the Klixon thermal overload on the side of the compressor.
If there is a RUN capacitor you can check the capacitor by disconnectin one side of the capacitor and reading across the 2 terminals. You should see a momentart jump in resistance and then the meter goes ti infinity. Reverse the leads and do it again... same result = good Cap.
Additionally they can be good but the compressor rotor can be dragging. On the side of the compressor there is a LRA number. That stands for Locked Rotor Amperage followed by and amperage value. You have to use an amp meter to see if the LRA amperage is reached... if the LRA amperage is reached the bad news is the compressor has to be changed.
Last thing... to get rid of ice in the evaporator drain.. Use a fan or hand held hair dryer until all of the ice has melted int he drain funnel and tube. It is best to use a rag to remove the water as you can because it insulated the ice and it takes MUCH longer for the ice to melt in the funnel / tube. Then use a piece of wire or a Zip/Cable tie to clear any obstructions. Nothing SHARP.... you will poke holes in the tube.
Hopefully I have covered everything. If you need more assistance just respond here and I will gladly help you.
Thanks for choosing FixYa,
Kelly
Hi again. Here is a typical Maytag schematic / wiring digram:
http://www.applianceaid.com/images/mayad...
After measuring Amperage checking to see if the LRA amperage listed on the compressor label is not being reached and you suspect a problem with the compressor here is what you should do....
First read for 120VAC to ground on the ORANGE wire of the Adaptive Defrost control harness. You can also probe the COMP conductor (Same as orange wire) on the control board checking for 120VAC to ground.
Next check for 120VAC reading Orange to Blue wires on the compressor
After you gain access to the PTC relay and thermal overload assy on the compressor pull it off the side of the compressor and perform these continuity checks on the 3 terminal pins on the side of the compressor:
Terminal labels are
"C" = common.
"S" = Start winding
"R" = Run winding
You should read continuity from C to S. Also C to R
You should NOT read continuity S to the case of the compressor
You should NOT read continuity R to the case of the compressor
You should NOT read continuity R to S
Failure to obtain the expected results above = a Bad Compressor.
If the results above are as expected then as a Technician I would change the PTC relay and the Klixon Thermal overload directly under the PTC relay and check to see if the compressor would start and run. If it attempts to start with a "new" PTC Relay & Klixon Thermal overload installed but does not run then the run capacitor must also be changed.
If the compressor is running normally and you are not getting the normal temps inside the freezer compartment...
1. Make sure the evaporator fan is running at full speed.
2. Make sure the condensor fan is running at full speed.
After doing the above; the following steps is what a technician will do
3. Check coolant system pressures
4. Service coolant system and change the Freon drier if coolant pressures are not reached or excessive pressures are reached. High coolant pressures are a sign of a coolant sytem blockage usually found in the drier or capilliary that connects to the drier.
Just keep in mind that anytime the evaporator and condensor fans are running the compressor should also be running.
I think I have covered everything but changing the temperature control. The temp control passes power from the red wire to the blue wire when temps require the compressor and fans to run.
I do wish you the best and will watch for any future responses.
Kelly
Hi again. Sorry for the delay I was off running errands. The bi-metal thermostat will read continuity anytime the termp is below 60 deg F. I do no suspect that it is bad being that you read continuity but..... it can be bad if you read continuity and the temp is above 60 deg F. I.e the defrosting cycle would never terminate.
Given nothing happened when you jumpered L1 to TEST on the on the Adaptive defrost control it appears that the defrost control itself has failed.
Continuity across the defrost element = OK
Continuity across the Defrost thermostat below 60F = OK.
The PTC relay is located under the platic cover on the side of the compressor. You would probably refer to it as a start relay. The PTC relay mates with the thermoal overload on the side of the compressor. One of the 3 compressor terminal / pins acutally mated to the thermal overload. When you separate the relay and the thermal overload assy the thermal overload assy will have a Flat bottom V shape. I will look up the parts... and re-post.
In the mean time it appears..... for the moment.... that the adaptive defrost control has failed.
However.... we really need to see if the compressor runs at all.
Just keep in mind that anytime the compressor is shut off there is about a 10 - 15 minute rest period required for the compressor internal pressures to stabilize so the compressor will restart without cycling the THERMAL overload every 4 to 5 minutes where the compressor attempts to start but... does NOT run after the start cycle.
Parts next post,
Kelly
Kelly
The PTC Relay and thermal overload are item 4 this link: (as an assembly)
http://www.appliancepartspros.com/partse...
Detailed view:
http://www.appliancepartspros.com/part_d...
(This is a very good price but you will have to follow the instruction sheet included with the kit to make the proper connections as it differs from the original parts but is a suitable sub.)
Compare the cover in the picture and the parts... your unit may take this PTC relay assy:
http://www.appliancepartspros.com/part_d... (Normal price for all components) Again you will have to follow the instruction sheet to make the connections.
The run capacitor is item 6 of the same link above:
Detailed View: http://www.appliancepartspros.com/part_d...
I did not see where you had checked the run capacitor. It will be to the left of the compressor. You trest the capacitor by disconnecting one wire and reading resistance one direction then reversing the leads. Your watching for a jump in resistance and then taper off to infinity after EACH time your reverse the leads. 95% of the time this test is all you need to do.
We really have to know if the compressor and cooling fans are running at full speed....
The Bi-metal thermosat is located above the evaporator coils and the defrost heating element is located below the evaporator coils.
On your unit the thermosat and defrost heating element come as an assembly. Item 12 this link:
http://www.appliancepartspros.com/partse...
Detailed views are here:
http://www.appliancepartspros.com/part_d...
The thing to note is that the defrost element and thermostat will read OPEN above 60 deg F and closed Below 60 deg F when installed. The thermostat is wired in series with the heating element and opens the defrost circuit when above 60 Deg F.
Once the defrost thermostat opens the adaptive defrost control is supposed to sense the loss of voltage due to the thermostat cycling open and restart the compressor.
In other words... when there is a loss of the white black tracer wire voltage the adaptaptive defrost control is suppiosed to restart the compressor.
http://www.applianceaid.com/image/mayada...
I still am not convinced that the adaptive defrost control is bad.... (leaning that way yes...)
But until the compressor start run components are known to be good It is hard for me to say that the adaptive defrost control is the defective part. (Those components are... the relay, the thermal overload, and the run capacitor) Once those are known to be good and your sure the compressor ROTOR is NOT locked.... then and only then will I say... The adaptive defrost control is the culprit.
Kelly
Hi again Lance,
Sorry to hear about your pains but as a disabled person myself I can relate to reaching the pint when you just have to stop and go heal.
Now as for the icing on the coils. If the defrost thermostat is stuck open the unit will never enter the defrost cycle. You can check it by reading the RED to White/Black at the Adaptive defrost control. You should read resistance below 60 deg F. (remove the connector and red the harness only!)
If you read continuity then once again we need to re-verify the defrost element continuity by reading Yellow to White/Black on the defrost control. Any opens means you will have to order a defrost element and thermostat.
If both of these are good and you can not get the unit to cycle into DEFROST by jumpering L1 to TEST then you have little choice but to change the adaptive defrost control. (Roughly a $60.00 part)
That pretty much is the bottom line. I am assuming that the compressor is running just fine due to your just over 1 amp measurement of the compresser current. Additonally your capacitor test was perfect so that is no longer a suspect.
I am in the middle of replacing kitchen cabinets that were killed by termites and re-doing a bathroom so I many not be responding as quick as I should be. Just life things are getting in the way of my time here. I will not leave you hanging. Please just be patient. I do check the site several times a day even with everything going on here.
Kelly
Lance here is my concern. The sefrost cycle should start in 3 - 8 seconds while L1 to TEST is being jumpered. Everything should go quiet and the defrost element should start heating up. If you can not get the unit to cycle into defrost by jumpering L1 to Test for at least 8 seconds then the culprit is most likely the Adaptive defrost control itself. Just make that you know for a fact the defrost element and Bi-metal thermostat are in good working order before you make the decision to change the Adaptive Defrost Control.
Kelly
Can't type today.. spelling is awfuL!
Hi Lance, I noted you accepted the solution. If you were able to get your unit going without calling for servie I would appreciate any feedback. Even though you accepted the solution I will still get notifications of any comments.
Kelly
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Kelly,
, or, if you have unlimited long distance, via phone at (209) 293-4475.
Thank you for your detailed response to my inquiry. Due to some sort of glitch in the system I only just received your information this AM (1/12/11). I had been set up for a chat on the 10th, but after an hour plus of waiting, I had other matters to attend to, so I opted to handle the situation via e-mail. Unfortunately, I did not receive your e-mail response and spent the majority of yesterday dealing with customer support. I hate to lose a day, but am pleased to finally get in touch with you.
I guess that the positive side of this whole scenario, Kelly, is the fact that it gave me some time to gather a bit more information. Yesterday (the 11th), I turned the freezer to max. cold and placed the indoor component of my indoor/outdoor RF thermometer on the bottom shelf of my freezer and it indicated a temp. of just over 23 degrees. This AM, I placed the same unit into the ice-maker and found the temp. to be 26.8 degrees. Additionally, I noted yesterday that the ice-maker was indeed functioning, as there were frozen cubes in the ice-maker itself and found, after placing a large spoon in the ice bin, that the unit was discharging
--- the spoon was covered by several cubes. Unfortunately, the ice is still shiny, so I can only surmise that the temp. is still higher than it should be.
After reading your comments regarding this issue, I'm compelled to believe that the unit is stuck on defrost; however, I will shortly access the link that you provided (thanks) and, providing that I am able to understand what I suspect will be schematics, I will go through your whole check list --- thankfully, I have an abundance of jumpers and a multi-meter that is capable of all functions.
Thanks again for your response Kelly, I'm praying that it will turn out to be something simple, but am prepared for the worse. I hope that the "lost day" doesn't become an issue, for I am expecting company this weekend and a malfunctioning refrigerator will definitely put a damper on things. After three surgeries, my back is pretty lame as well, so speed is not on the list of my assets. I'll let you know how things work out and, if you have any further input, feel free to contact me via e-mail at
Thanks again, Lance
P.S. I just pulled the thermometer out from the bottom shelf of the freezer and, after approx. a half hour of residence time, it indicated 25.6 degrees. That's not really what I wanted to see, but the data dovetails with the fact that a package of American cheese, that lay there-in, is getting a bit soft to the touch. A quick shower and I'm on it.
Okay Kelly,
Boy, talk about the Cinderella syndrome. If all of the components were just a bit higher or a little lower, I'd be working comfortably. As luck would have it, that is not the case, so it has taken me a while longer to access the components, however, I've made a bit of progress.
I've gone down your check list and here is what I have found so far:
1) I jumped L1 and Test and no activity was noted (no increase in noise from the freezer fan or cessation of same). I may be incorrect, but I believe that the unit has been stuck on defrost. When I disconnected the PC board, for step two, all activity in the freezer (fan noise, etc.) stopped.
2) I have continuity in the defrost heater element (Yellow wire to White/Black)
3) I noted continuity when I checked the Bi-metal Defrost Thermostat (Red to Black/White).
4) The problem seems to be the thermostat, as when I jumped the Blue wire from the temp. control to the Red wire that plugs into the PC board, I, again, noted continuity.
Now for what may prove to be the bad news, for me anyway (I'll have to rely on your expertise to determine whether I added a rather large fly to the ointment or not). When I went to access the Blue wire from the temp. control, I, inadvertently, allowed the alligator clip to short out on the metal frame to which the temp. control is mounted. The clip is sheathed in rubber, but, unfortunately, there was just enough metal exposed to complete the ground. This happened BEFORE I was able to check for continuity between the Blue and the Red wire. As I noted earlier, once I got the rubber sheath squared away, I was able to complete the test with the above described results --- sans a short. I don't know if the short damaged the temp. control unit or not, I'll have to leave that up to you. All "looks" good on the PC board (no fried resistors, caps, or transistors). Is there a way to check the temp. control to see if I have damaged it?
I'll be anxiously awaiting your input,
Regards, Lance
Kelly, I haven't heard from you since my last missive, but while waiting, I disconnected the power from the frig. and, subsequently, disconnected the temp. control unit from the Blue, Orange, and ground wires. I then checked for continuity on the switch and found that there was zero continuity with the switch turned completely to the left (off) and varying resistance as I turned the dial clockwise, so I don't believe that I succeeded in frying the switch (I hope). I would still very much appreciate your feedback as concerns all, as well as the physical locations of the various part(s) that may need replacement (ie: the Bi-Metal Thermostat). I am very pleased with the information that you have provided so far, and hope to continue working with you until the job is completed. I'd like to try testing the thermostat with the control unit isolated; but to isolate the control unit, I believe that I'd have to jump the Blue and Orange wires that power it and I'm not sure that, by doing so, I'd come up with productive results. Nevertheless, I'll wait to hear from you and we can continue on from there. If you agree with the results of my test on the temp. unit, then I'm compelled to assume that the Bi-metal Thermostat is the culprit. If that is indeed the case, then I'm going to have to order a replacement ASAP. Needless to say, losing a day on this project (yesterday) does not favor my getting the job completed in as timely a fashion as I would have preferred, but I'm encouraged a bit by the results of testing the resistance in the control unit --- I hate taking backward steps as a result of carelessness. In conclusion to this note, I'd also appreciate it if you would be so kind as to define a "PTC relay," that's a new one for me. Also, I'd like to make it clear that $20 is but a drop in the bucket when compared to what I'd have to pay to have a technician make a house call and I have no qualms about sending a bit more your way for your assistance. Looking forward to hearing from you, Lance
Morning Kelly, I can't believe that I'm getting such a late start today, but, due to my friendly back, I didn't get much sleep last night and had an errand that had to be attended to this AM. I'm now on the job and doing my best to digest all the info that you have been kind enough to send. According to your "transcript", I still have much to do in the way of trouble shooting and I will get on that as soon as I get done with this note. Here is where I stand at present ------- Yesterday (in addition to what I have related), I checked amperage on all wires connected to the compressor via the relay (obviously, with power on) and and didn't get a reading over 1.0 amps. There are three wires that I checked: one blue [descends from a four way clip (connector)] that leads up into the body of the frig), one white (from the cap.) and one silverish in color that originates from two spliced orange wires. One of the orange wires originates at the cap.and the other, again, originates from the previously noted four way clip. I then checked the capacitor (with power off) by pulling one lead off completely and working the other out far enough to get contact with my test probe. The first time that I tested, I noted a reading of 2.05 nF which spiked to 14.85 nF. After reversing the probes I noted a reading of 1.99 nF which spiked, again, to 14.85 nF. I left the unit OFF and allowed all to defrost in the freezer. I too, have too many things going on and had to depart for the rest of the afternoon. Please note that prior to retiring last evening, I powered up the unit and let it run overnight. This AM, I checked the freezer and found that the cubes in the ice tray, as well as a few water bottles that were left in, were all frozen; however the ice-maker is not cycling as there were no cubes in the collection bin. Although I have no way to quantify my observations, all fans seem to be running at full speed. I will now go through the rest of your check list (various voltages, etc) and will re-test the resistance in the thermostat --- the interior temp. of the BOTTOM of the freezer is now reading 58+ degrees. Although I'm sure that the top of the freezer is at least three to five degrees warmer, I will wait until it reaches 60 at the bottom before I test the therm. again. Taking into consideration the fact that my testing of the cap. did not result in a spike to infinity (OL), I'm wondering if I should have performed the test with the power on. I'll wait to hear from you before I take any action in that regard. If a "power off" test is acceptable, then I have to suspect that the capacitor may be defective as well (?). Please note, however, that when I powered the unit down yesterday, I heard the compressor "spin down" and when I re-established power I noted that the compressor got warm to the touch and copper tubing that goes up into the freezer was quite cool. My head is aspin, but will get with the "program" as soon as the temp. reaches a solid 60 to re-check the therm., then I'll go "power on" and check the voltages. I'll be checking back periodically to check for a response from you re: the cap (test with power on or off). Appreciating your patience with me, Lance
Holy Cow Kelly, I am TOTALLY abashed in addition to being in extreme pain --- it seems that I've pulled something in my back while crawling around my infernal machine and it's killing me. Notwithstanding, my chagrin lies in the fact that I totally discounted the possibility that the evaporator in the back of the freezer may have been encased in ice. This has happened before and, as you noted from the beginning, the results were a frozen drain tube and water dripping from the bottom of the freezer compartment onto the floor. The volume of water that I noted from my earlier experience with frozen coils was much greater than I have observed as of late and it didn't show up in the cyclic fashion that it did about a year ago, which, at the time, I surmised was in keeping with the defrost cycle. Anyway, with that thought loitering in my sub-conscious, while I was waiting for the unit to warm up this AM, I thought to take a turkey baster and squirt some water through the slots in the back plate to be certain that the drain wasn't, in fact, plugged. The resulting water in the pan convinced me that the coils were NOT the problem; however, to keep busy, and still suspecting the Bi-Metal Thermostat to be the problem, I went to pull the back plates of the freezer off and found them to be frozen to the coils! I'm at my wit's end with this thing Kelly and can't tell you how much I wish that I had checked the coils first. I've presently got my, never far from reach, heating pad on my back and a blow dryer working to defrost the coils. Now the questions are --- WHY are the coils icing up, why did the drain tube remain open when it froze up a year ago, and is all of this just a symptom of something else? I'm loathe to re-assemble without knowing that there isn't a cause and effect syndrome going on here. I know that you've dedicated a great deal of your time to this project and please believe that I appreciate the attention that you've given to spelling out all the details to someone who only has a lay knowledge of refrigeration technology. Being certain that, at the very least, it would end up being a learning experience, I've never shied away from attacking any repair project ranging from all aspects of automotive repair, plumping, and home electrical to pulse width modulation --- BUT, this darned refrigerator has me totally stumped. If I don't hear back from you pretty soon, I'll have little choice but to re-assemble, compensate you for your time and efforts, and keep my fingers crossed. but, in the back of my mind, I'll be thinking that there has to be a cause and effect going on. It's 2:30 PM here in CA., if you receive this within the next hour or so, I'd really appreciate hearing what you think is going on. I truly hope that we don't have messages crossing themselves in the ether of cyberspace! Many thanks, Lance
Okay Kelly, You've provided me with a wealth of information and, although I believed that I understood most, if not all, of what you related, it only just occurred to me that I haven't been as clear on a few of the steps as I should have been. I really did a number on my back and, with that as an issue, I'm getting frustrated. My general rule is that when frustration becomes a factor, it's time to walk away from the project before small mistakes become big ones. So, I'm going to have my small frig. brought into the house from storage and take a few steps back. I'll get back to you tomorrow and we'll see where we're going to go from there. I'll send you a note between 10 and 11 AM PST. Sorry, I'm sure that my notes have demonstrated a lack of understanding --- of nomenclature anyway. With all of the info you have imparted, that has had to have been a source of frustration for you as well. Not yet willing to give up the ship, Lance
kel1guy2002 was extremely helpful. I, having only a basic lay knowledge of refrigeration to rely on, was provided with a clear cut troubleshooting strategy that has aided me immensely in my efforts to come to a better understanding of the technology and get my refrigerator back on line. I would highly recommend Kelly to anyone who is having difficulty with their refrigeration system.
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