Mastery.. (by 2 users)

"Sooner or later you are going to have to deal with this simple fact:
if you want to get better you have to spend a lot of time WITH the
guitar playing music. "

True, Kevin. Yet I make account for this and have exercises for "Hands
on Study" - check the reply to Kurt Shariro. This program and concept
though is really focused at "the theory + the instrument". I examine
the instrument in many ways using devices such as
1)String Math, "1C + 11 = 12B" - "1st Fret Pitch C Up/Plus 11 intervals
is Pitch B 12th fret" start Standard (EADGBE) move to any Tuning
2)Visual Patterns (chord,arpeggio and scale - also inversions and
drops),
3)Rote Memory (horizontally and vertically across strings and in
reverse of each!),
4)Relative Interval Patterns on each string (got this from Joe Pass) -
by interval distance - Pitch - Interval name AND degree,
5)Chord Progressions
6)Octaves
7)Fingerings for exercises number 2). 5) and 6)
8)Fret-board and site note matching (includes chords and scales)

Each of these can and SHOULD be done with as LITTLE technology beyond a
pencil and paper as possible. Why? So that the mind is not distracted
by the glow of the screen or the HUM of the fans or the burp and blip
of the speaker or the LURE of just checking the ol' e-mail 1 last
time.. This simplifies the whole process.. And simple is the aim of
these exercises.

I have devised and augmented various examples of fret-board paper I
have found on the Internet for most of the exercises. I plan on using
and programming the TI-92 or HP-48g  along with the computer (using C#)
to eventually support all the graphical needs that the games may
require. This should allow students to get in a 15 exercise or two
during lunch or some other small listless moment of the day.

Finally, I have this all broken down into a outline and I am working on
designing a logical order so that each exercise is a natural
progression from the next - within a predictable and measured amout of
time. In other words, the student should not be LOST about what to do
upon completing the previous exercise.

I hope many people will help in creating tests, puzzles and exercises
that continually FORCE the student to know the information forwards
backwards, visually, aurally, by 3rds, 7ths and in all sorts of
groupings used in music until, they are UNFLAPABLE! That is the ideal
..

Everything I tell you I believe it will work because the process has
worked before with "Kumon".. Kumon inspired me to take this route and
many people here inspired me to put the concept (of me playing like a
Jimmy Bruno -fluid ) and put it to task.. And taking that idea plus
some others learned in a lifetime I think this could help everyone -
including me!

So... Questions, comments?

And again, thanks for the intrest and support,
cope

"Kevin Van Sant" <kvans @pobox.com> wrote

I was going to point that out too. It's quite misguided for anyone to
conclude that any activity away from the instrument will make you a better
instrumentalist.

There are lots of exercises that will improve your musicianship, sight
reading, ear training, composing, arranging, theoretical understanding,
etc., that you can do away from your principle instrument.  However, to be a
good trumpet player you've got to practice the trumpet. To be a good drummer
you've got to practice the drums.    etc.    etc.

There ain't no way around it.        ..........joe

--
Visit me on the web  www.joefinn.net

Strange is a queer way to put it.. lol.. I apologize if I came off like
an info-mercial I digressed past the question you had at hand. I think
I'm kind of excited about the concept and about how many it could help.
Including myself. It's actually FUN to be designing a process, and
testing it at the same time - like some exotic adventure. Yea.

Anyhow, I had wanted to keep some of this as a surprise but like I
said, I'm not trying to charge for any of this but I wouldn't mind
having my name associated with the exercises.. :D

Business..
One of the first exercises in the "Theory" group is getting the student
used to interval counting in the chromatic scale. The game is simple we
assign a interval distance to each note past C until we reach the
octave, with enharmonic being the same number. Example "C# / Db has an
interval distance of 1 semi-tone".. "D  has an interval distance of 2
semi-tones".. Continue up till octave Which has 12 semi-tones.. Basic,
right?

OK. So now we use a calculator (this is where the computers/calculators
come in) to randomize 12 digits. I have a $15 calculator (Casio
fx-300MS) that does this for me. I then grab a piece of  lined/graph
paper to write my answers down.

1a)First, I start a timer for 15 mins.

2a)Next, starting with a root of "C" - when given a random number (for
example "3") by the calculator I first attempt to VISUALIZE the note at
the interval of  C "plus" 3 at a distance of 3.

3a)Then, I say out loud "C plus/up 3 intervals is D#"

4a)Then and ONLY after steps 2-3  I write "C+3 = D#" //Note I didn't
use the enharmonic - this is for none TET students as well

5a) Goto step 2a until timer rings

Also, just yesterday I added my metronome to the mix and started trying
various speeds so I know when I'm OFF PACE so to speak.. just another
element to keep the mind completely immersed and FOCUSED because the
FOCUS is really where the learning happens so it is important to create
a certain environment. You see.

Now, this exercise is then FLIPPED in reverse which is surprisingly
more difficult, even after I got used to going from C to just sharps!

I do the same thing that is posted above - as follows with just a few
changes:

1b) Reset the timer to 15 mins except this time i move in reverse.
2b) First I visualize C minus/down 3 semi-tones
3b) Next, I say "C minus/down 3 is A"
4b) Lastly, I write down "C-3 = A"
5b) Goto step 2b until timer rings

The student should complete roughly 125 - 200 problems (a whole page in
15 mins) for 1 week until going to the NEXT note.. I go by 5ths so for
me it was G. Then F. Then D. Then Bb.. you get the idea.

This is JUST ONE of the exercises from JUST the theory portion of the
exercises. The idea is simple: Take a 2 step process and work the mind
into processing it in 1 step. Then burn that idea into the long term
memory and

Don't use graph paper. Use staff paper.

Learn to recognize the intervals on the staff. Learn to find them on your
instrument and sing them too. Identify well know melodies containing
specific intervals as a memory cue to help yourself remember them.

Rather than thinking of everything in terms of half steps use the regular
nomenclature; 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths, 10ths, etc. That's what the rest
of us do.  ....joe

--
Visit me on the web  www.joefinn.net

Well, I have to say that after using a computer for various tasks -
some games, some work - I find that the computer in it's current form
is more of a distraction to learning than a help. So, most of the games
can be done on paper (should be), and computer simply randomizes the
questions and "keeps score".

I think that by NOT using a computer that individuals are forced to not
wonder off - mentally. I reinforce this idea by making the student (me)
write each question (though this is optional) and answer and say the
question and answer as well. By reading writing, speaking and doing the
math/logic/pattern it forces even my ADD (lol) mind to stay focused as
any other thought has difficulty arising is one is doing all of these
things.

The tests are broken down into 3 main groups.
1) Theory
2) Practical (Theory plus instrument of choice)
3) Hands on

Games in 1 and 2 are done on paper or with PREPRINTED worksheets that
the program prints for that day for THAT student. The student then goes
through the worksheet within a given amount of time. I do 2 hours of
this a day which amounts to 8 games each lasting about 10-15 mins each
with a 3-4 min rest between *sets* or games. there really is no way to
do them faster as than that at first because one read,writes, and
recites. This is the primary initial burn in period. All the mistakes
are caught at this stage. As the student gets better at the tests
(every 7 days or so) some element of the test is made so that the
student has to do THAT part in his/her mind. So by the second week it
may not be necessary to WRITE out the questions. By the third week, It
may not necessary to Say the question - mabey only think it explicitly.
I'm still working this part out.

The final idea and goal is to ween the student from the computer to the
older tech pen and paper and finally using only one;s own mind to test
and response so that when the student sees the question he/she also
SEES the answer at the exact same time - WITHOUT THOUGHT! Each test is
constructed to BURN IN a specific concept until one has implicit
knowledge of ALL solutions from that test AT THE SAME TIME. In other
words the first day of the first test the student may do 125 question
and responses. By day 60 the student should be doing all the elements
of the game in his/her mind (perhaps the computer will still  be
randomizing answers.. not sure) at speeds of closer to 500 - 600 within
the same time span.

As far as HEARING the pitch I have taking many tips and notes from
music theory.net and the games Adam has designed. The game where a
chord is played and the player has to decide WHICH chord it was is
invaluable and EXCELLENT! So, I do see that eventually ech aspect will
need to be integrated system - Theory, Pattern, Mathematics (what I
call Chord and String math), Rote memory and Aural memory. It's going
to b

Copious: This is a strange post. Four paragraphs of remarks about the form
these exercises will take with no mention as to the lesson content.

Ah, now we are getting somewhere.

There are only so many chord voicings that are commonly used in jazz guitar.
For this reason I encourage students to work in pairs. The session proceeds
with one player playing a chord on the guitar and the other player
identifying it without looking. The pair can go back and forth playing and
listening, listening and playing, etc. This isn't the only ear training
trick in the book but it can be quite beneficial and besides it's fun.

I'm not sure I follow this.        Give me a for instance.       ......joe

--
Visit me on the web  www.joefinn.net

On 1 Mar 2005 06:25:46 -0800, "copious" <black.b @gmail.com>  wrote
in message <1109687146.009014.290 @g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> :

What you're talking about sounds interesting but I have to say I'm
always more than a little skeptical about methods or tools or computer
programs devised for learning and understanding music that don't
actually involve hands on the instrument making music.  

Sooner or later you are going to have to deal with this simple fact:
if you want to get better you have to spend a lot of time WITH the
guitar playing music.  

______________________________­___________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar

http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.

Visit my new Instant Download Mp3 Store at:
http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3 -store.html

Alternate site for gig tape soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/band s/kevinvansant_music.htm

To answer your original question more directly, it's going to take a
beginner two or three years before they can do much anything on a musical
instrument. Guitar is no different than anything else. I'm talking about two
or three years with a qualified instructor, regularly scheduled ensemble
time, lots of listening and practicing up to three hours a day seven days
every week.

This will bring the student to a certain threshold. Continuing a schedule
like the one above will take the student to the next level. Students who
begin at age ten or so will then be about 16 with six years of instruction
and ensemble skills behind them. Basic musicianship will be on a level where
theory, composition, arranging, etc. can now be introduced in a formal way.
Lots of high schools offer theory classes to kids of this age.

After a few more years of study we begin to notice outstanding college age
players; Yet even the best of these is just beginning their musical odyssey.
It's a long, long road.

That's interesting. The musical community is always looking for fresh
approaches. Good luck.       .....joe

--
Visit me on the web  www.joefinn.net

I don't think any guitarist ever thinks he's learnt everything.
I've certainly read quotes from Jim Hall, Joe Pass and John
Scofield, regretting all the things they haven't yet mastered.
If those guys don't think they've reached perfection, I guess
nobody ever will.

Also, I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by fixing
your eyes on a far-distant finishing line. Think about what
you can do right now: even if you're right at the beginning,
I bet you can already improvise over a simple tune at a slow
tempo. If you persevere, year for year you'll be able to
play better improvisations over more complex tunes at faster
tempos. There's no touchdown to aim for, it's just continuous
development all the way. Enjoy the music you can make at
every stage, and enjoy the journey.

--
www.david-anna.com

I don't know any "masters".

--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

No shortage of slaves though. Or indentured servants at any rate.

You never finish. In my experience, the
way to learn something on guitar is
to just start doing it. It will sound
bad at first, then gradually get
better.

This works for anything. You want to
learn to play fast? Start playing as fast
as you can. You want to learn complex
changes? Start playing those tunes.

I learned all the theory, and it was
worth the effort. (Not that much
effort is involved.)

But just playing is how you get
better. I think the theoretical
approach slowed me down as
much as it helped me. I might
have grown faster if I spent more
time learning songs and less
time working out theoretical ideas.

Thank you for the comments. I see I have some ways to go, as I am still
thining there is a TOP! lol.

I just want to realize my potential before I'm too old, busy or
FUSTRATED to continue! I think I have a unique way of approaching music
theory and learning the details of HOW one goes about doing so. I was
wondering if others could share techniques that they used.

Right now I am in the process of building two applications based on a
set of  "games" I came up with that intensify the learning process of
the theory and the fretboard - about 30 to be exact. I have broken down
each element of theory in SMALL and simpl exercises that will keep one
busy for an HOUR without wondering off into space or check the TV..

I find that a methodized appoach to learning like "kumon" whereby
repetition of simple elements that BUILD on oneanother yield wonderful
results if practiced daily.

I hope to have covered and vaporized (know without thinking) allmost
all theory based skill sets within 1 year. I'm guieni pigging myself
but somehow I can allready see the effects of the effort.

The programs are built for the computer in C# and the TI-92 calculator.
They will BOTH be FREE of charge. Period. This group inspired me to do
that because I have learned so much here, it is only right if I then
share that info with others.

If anyone is interested in helping me PLAY TEST (make them most
efficient and effective) then please let me know! They are very simple
and really only use the computer to randomize and "hold score" of past
works so that the student can track his or her progress.

Well, I'm off to practice and program. Again, if anyone here is
interested - even in helping me test some of the "games" / "exercises"
please let me know.

Cheers!

I've been at it off and on for at least 30 years and it hasn't happened yet.
Your mileage may vary.

On 28 Feb 2005 12:21:59 -0800, "copious" <black.b @gmail.com>  wrote
in message <1109622119.689649.294 @o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> :

There have been a few times when I felt like I had the fretboard all
figured out and synced up with my knowledge of music, but then always
I learn something new and it challenges my "mastery" of the
instrument.   I'm pretty sure that will continue to be the case for as
long as I am still trying to learn more.  So in that light, "mastery"
may never occur.  Even what seems to be a solid functional handle on
the fretboard evolves.  Five years ago I thought I knew my way around
the neck really well, but today I know I am at least ten times more
familiar.   It's working through the things that cause you to stumble
that make you more and more in control.  

I guess I didn't really answer the question, so to continue...  I
think that most likely your fretboard familiarity will keep pace with
your musical ideas.    I don't know what is fast or slow, it depends
on what you're trying to play.  It seems to me that the dedicated jazz
guitar student should know their way around the neck well enough to
play any typical standards after a couple of years.  But as I've
already said, that command and familiarity should never stop
increasing.

______________________________­___________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar

http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.

Visit my new Instant Download Mp3 Store at:
http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3 -store.html

Alternate site for gig tape soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/band s/kevinvansant_music.htm