DVD-RAM Burning

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Hi Vic,

Changing the extension to mpg will work providing there is only one "clip"
on the dvd-ram. Meaning you never stopped recording then started recording
again. You'll find that changing to mpg will lose all but the first clip.

< >...



Hi Vic

Yes will be interesting to see how you get on, as it would be better to keep
the nice compressed AC3 audio rather than send it through a decode/encode
cycle.  I had heard about the update but not got round to downloading it
yet, as not needing to do anything DVD wise at the moment.

I tried DVDJr and it was full of bugs, I looked at it the wrong way and it
crashed :-)

Look forward to hearing how you get on.

Regards

Philip

Philip,

Thanks for the input. I was going to try that experiment tonite so you
saved me a "trip". Oh well, for multiple clips, I guess I can either
dub the disk to DVD-RAM (to get a contiguous vro/mpg) or use
Panasonic's MovieAlbum to extract the multiple mpegs at the expense of
the ac3 audio tracks (MovieAlbum converts to mp2).

Vic

Philip,

It was even better than I thought. I don't even have to use DVDJr. to
convert to vob. I can simply change the extension of the vro file to
mpg right on the DVD-RAM and Workshop will import it directly. I can
then author menus, etc... and output to DVD-Video (DVD-R) with the
dolby digital 2.0 (ac3) soundtrack intact! The process is streamlined
and reliable now. Time to convert that stack of DVD-RAMs to DVD-R.
Other enhancements to Workshop include full support for Linear PCM
audio and a checkbox to keep Workshop from attempting to re-encode
your source file. All-in-all 1.2 appears to be a very worthwile
update.

Vic

Demus,

I'll have to try the renaming thing, sounds interesting, what software
do you use to burn the DVD-R with (I'll probably use Nero 5.5).

Here's the info on MovieAlbum - You can order it from Pansonic by
calling:
1-800-833-9626 and asking for Part No. VFF0128 (Driver and application
software for LF-D321U) at about $7.70 plus shipping ($4 or $5
dollars). You don't need to have the LF-D321U drive specifically for
the software to work, but you MUST HAVE a Mitsushita (Panasonic, Que,
Vivastar) DVD-RAM drive installed on your system (the installation
routine checks for this on install). DVDit LE is also on the disk as
well as DVD-RAM drive drivers. Will allow you to export the vro to
mpeg2 directly. You can also do limited editing (cuts etc...) on the
vro directly on the DVD-RAM, if you have a Pansonic DVD-RAM drive.

BTW, I don't have the Panasonic DVD-RAM camcorder, I have the
Panasonic DMR-E20 DVD recorder deck. It retails for about $599 now
online. Panasonic is phasing out the E20 with the E30 which is about
the same but with progressive scan playback for about the same price.

Good luck,
Vic

Actually I use DVDit PE to burn. I tried Nero 5582 but it didn't work too
good, kept telling me that the files I'm trying to burn didn't belong
together. Still don't understand how a burning prog would , first of all,
know what I'm burning doesn't belong together, and second , why it would
care????
Antway, Thanks for the info on movie album. I'll give them a call tomorrow.
I actually have the QUE DVD-Ram drive so it shouldn't be a problem, that if
it finds a firewire drive. If not I'll probly put the drive in a free bay,
been wanting to anyway, planning on putting a hard dive in the firewire
case.

Was just curious about the camcorder, they had it listed for $2400 on the
website, I bought the Hitachi for $900. Looks like it's the same camera,
just couldn't understand the price difference.

Philip,

Thanks for the info, great tip, however, Pansonic's MovieAlbum
software ($12 CD direct from Panasonic spare parts department,
supplied with the latest Panasonic DVD-RAM/R PC drives) does a
straight up conversion/export of the vro to an mpeg2 program file with
mp2 audio muxed in (converts the AC3 stream to mp2 and remuxes on the
fly) which I can import into Ulead's DVD Movie Factory or DVD
Workshop. The export process takes about 20 minutes for a 4GB vro. So
I don't have to go through the TMPGenc intermediate steps of demuxing,
generating the mp2, deleting the ac3, remuxing and so on. I've tried
the TMPGenc method before (actually, with older versions of TMPGenc, I
found that after demux I could load the m2v and ac3 streams and just
convert the ac3 stream to mp2 during the remux) and the problem was
that the remuxed mpeg2 ALWAYS had a fixed a/v sync offset. This
happened even when I imported the m2v and ac3 elementary streams
directly into a program such as Spruceup. The resultant DVD was also
out of sync. So I gave up trying to preserve the AC3 soundtrack or
demuxing/remuxing w/ TMPGenc.

I have also used DVDJr to convert the vro to vob, but the DVDs it
generated from that vob (which retained the ac3 stream) had some
playback anomalies (you couldn't fast forward/reverse for example, the
menus were rudimentary, and no chapter stops could be generated for
vob files greater than 2GB)

Along comes Ulead DVD Workshop Ver 1.2 (new) which now supports mpeg2
files with an AC3 stream. I'm testing that capability as I type. I can
take the DVDJr. extracted vob rename it to mpg and Workshop takes the
file and recognizes that it has AC3 audio. Once the DVD-RW is burned,
I'll be able to verify if audio is in sync and I will have realized my
holy grail: lossless conversion of a DVD-RAM vro file to mpeg2 with
AC3 that my authoring program will accept.

Wish me luck, its been about a 2 month journey,

Vic

Ok, then the problem is that the way the Panasonic records to DVD-RAM
and the way the Hitachi records to DVD-RAM are probably different. I
think I know what's going on. For the Panasonic, the DVD-RAM file
structure looks like this:

There is a single DVD_rtav folder with the following files:
Vr_movie.bup
Vr_movie.mgr
Vr_movie.vro

As you can see, this is not the standard DVD-Video file structure.
Furthermore, the reason the audio is screwed up if I just changed the
extension of the vro file to vbo is that the audio is encoded as Dolby
Digital 2.0 Stereo, not mp2 (as I suspect the Hitachi is), so if I
drop the vro as vbo into an authoring app, the app doesn't see the
audio elementary stream properly (its looking for mp2 or PCM). I know,
I've tried it. Also, I can't just burn the DVD-RAM file structure
directly to DVD-R because as you can see, the file structure doesn't
conform to the typical AUDIO_TS; VIDEO_TS file structure of a
DVD-Video disk. I would really like to know what the Hitachi DVD-RAM
file structure is, can you post it?

Thanks,
Vic

Another question, You said you have the Panasonic Camera, I checked their
website and could not believe the price they had posted!
Can I ask how much you paid for yours?

< >...

Of course I've tried it, I do it all the time. I don't understand why your
saying the audio isn't recognized. Maybe you should try it.

 >Thanks for the help, but I can see from what

Never said that I convert it to a .mov first, you asked for some software
and I gave you some options.
I , as I've said , just change the extension and burn from there. Keep in
mind you have to keep the DVD file structure in tact. (i.e. VIDEO_TS folder
and so on.)

< >...



Hi

The recording format used on DVD-RAM is called Video Recording.  This is a
standardised recording format approved by the DVD Forum, so regardless of
unit the format is the same.  It differs from the normal DVD Video format,
as this Video format was never designed with real-time recording in mind, so
could not cope with editing etc.

The .vro file is more or less a VOB file.  The problem you are having is
that your authoring package does not like working with AC3 (Dolby Digital),
a lot do not, and only more expensive authoring software supports AC3 for
authoring.

Here is what you can do:

First of all, try playing the VRO file directly in Windows Media Player, if
it plays with audio then you have an AC3 codec on your system.  If it does
not, you will need to install a DVD Player program that should install the
necessary codecs for playing Dolby Digital.

Now you need to convert the Audio AC3 to something like MPEG2 audio that
most authoring programs like.

You can do this using TMPGenc (www.tmpgenc.net).  Avoid the wizard and
instead under Video Source, select the VRO file and under stream type select
Audio only.  (Under Settings change the bit-rate for your audio as
required.)  You will now have another file called VRO_Movie.MP2 on your
system.  This is an MPEG2 audio file only.

Next step is to get rid of the AC3 file from the VR_MOVIE.VRO.  Using
tmpgenc again, go to File - Mpeg Tools, select Simple De-multiplex and load
the VR_MOVIE.VRO file, and start it running.  You will now have three files
on your system: VR_MOVIE.m2v (the video with no sound), VR_MOVIE.ac3, the
dolby digital sound track, and VR_MOVIE.mp2 (the MPEG audio).  Get rid of
the VR_MOVIE.ac3 as this is no good for you.

Most authoring packages will accept the two files of Video and Audio in
their separated state, but if now, or to make things easier, use MPEG Tools,
Simple Multiplex, select under type MPEG2 Program VBR, load up the two
files, and start it off to re-multiplex.  This now gives an MPEG DVD file
with MPEG Audio and the original video stream.  NOTE that the video stream
has not been changed or re-compressed, only the audio.

I have done this loads of times and it works perfectly.  I would suggest
emailing the various authoring companies telling them you would like support
for doing just this automatically (i.e take a DVD-RAM disc and make a DVD-R
Video disc automatically) and then these features may get added.

Hope this helps...

Regards

Philip

The structure is the same as yours. Like I said , you have to keep the dvd
structure together manually, which means changing file names from vr_movie
to vts_01_1.vob. You have to use vts_01 because a set top box needs to see
this file in order to work.

Not for nothing but if you have this movie album , Why bother with this????
I did some looking and it seems to be the perfect software for this camera.
I've been looking for something to do just what it does.
It looks like you can convert a vro straight to mpeg-2 , edit it with
whatever you want, then burn to a dvd-r, Is this correct????
If so that is perfect!!
That is the only downfall about changing extensions, you can't do any
editing. I'd have to do all my transitions from the cam, if I want to do
anything more to the video than that, I use vidomi to convert to divx then
edit and burn to dvd-r. I never liked doing this for a lot of reasons which
I'm sure are pretty obvious.

Do you know where I can get this movie album??
Everything I found on the net was Japanese, good thing I lived there for
three years, although I couldn't make out every detail it still seems to be
the perfect software.

< >...

it's really hard to tell what you get from that crappy spec. sheet.

This part was not encouraging:

"DVD-R discs recorded and finalized by this camcorder may
not be compatible with some DVD players and DVD-ROM drives,
depending on the player, the DVD-R disc and the condition
of the recording."

If the DVD-R's aren't compatible what does that say for using the
DVD-RAM format? DVD-RAM was designed for data storage.

What is the format that it uses to store the files? Best guess from
the data sheet would be mpg files or mp2 files..... If so consider
that a data format since it isn't going to play in your DVD player.

Mti

MOTAR's home site:
http://www.angelfire.com/rock/ motar/index.html

snip

snip

Demus,

The last thing I want to do is re-encode the video to another format
like mov (especially mov) or DiVX which will degrade picture quality.
And since these are file formats that cannot be used on a DVD-Video
disk, if you wanted to make a DVD-Video DVD-R you would have to
re-encode back to MPEG2, which would result in further degradation.
What I want to do is lossless conversion of the vro directly to a file
format such as MPEG2 and AC3/PCM/MP2 that can be imported into most
DVD authoring programs. None of the software you listed does that.
Simply changing the file extension to fro vro to vob doesn't work
either because then the audio portion of the file is not recognized
(have you tried it?). Thanks for the help, but I can see from what
you've recommended that you are apparently not turning your Hitachi
Video DVD-RAMs to Video DVD-Rs as you claimed or your picture quality
is degraded if you are converting to mov first before you author back
to DVD-Rs that are compatible with set top DVD players. I'll stick
with my Pansonic software, its not perfect, but it works without
having to re-encode to some intermediate format.

Vic

There's actually a couple of different ways. Check out www.vidomi.com or
www.softarch.com for Greatvideo! which will convert .vro's to .mov's.
As far as the .vro/.vob difference, try changing the .vro extension to a
.vob extension. Not much difference at all.

< >...

Can DVD-RAM be used for video? - Sure, I use it all the time. But I
believe Hitachi and Panasonic (which makes the DMR-E20 DVD video
recorder I own that records video to both DVD-RAM and DVD-R) record
video to DVD-RAM using a file structure that is different than that of
DVD-Video. Panasonic uses a file with a vro extension, most DVD-Video
disks use vobs. The vro or vob is comprised of an mpeg-2 video
elementary stream and either a PCM, Dolby Digital (AC3), or mpeg-1
layer 2 (mp2) audio elementary stream (or a combination of all three).
As such, most DVD set top boxes will not read DVD-RAM video disk
properly for two reasons: the file structure difference discussed
above (vro vs. vob) and the disk reading laser is not compatible with
the DVD-RAM media (the latter explains why most DVD STBs will not read
a DVD-RAM disk even if it is burned with the specified DVD-Video file
structure.

I'm curious as to what software you use to convert your Hitachi
DVD-RAM to a DVD-R disk that can then be played in a DVD standalone
player. This has been really hard to accomplish with the Panasonic E20
DVD-RAMs until I came across a proprietary Panasonic application
called MovieAlbum which allows me to extract an MPEG-2 from the
DVD-RAM vro file that I can then burn to DVD-R using any DVD authoring
program. Does Hitachi record to DVD-RAM using vro files?

Thanks,
Vic

"MOTAR the imperious" <m @motar.corn> wrote in message

That statement would be true for any DVD-R seeing how generation 1 and 2
players won't play DVD-R's.

Again, that's funny because Hitachi made DVD-RAM's and obviously they work
fine for video as well as data.
BTW, I have that same camera and yes, it takes great video on DVD-RAM's
which I then pop into my DVD-RAM drive and edit or burn to a full size
DVD-R.

On 11 Jul 2002 19:47:37 -0700, vferr @my-deja.com (vic ferrari)
wrote:



Thank you for the detailed explanation.

Mti

MOTAR's home site:
http://www.angelfire.com/rock/ motar/index.html

m @motar.corn (MOTAR the imperious) wrote in message < >...



Sorry, misread the above (only want to burn data). In that case, the
DVD-RAM should look like a regular disk drive and you should be able
to drag and drop, however, you'll need to bring your RAM drive along
to the desert as regular DVD-ROM drives cannot read the DVD-RAM disks.
Can't help you with the capacity problem, make sure you have the right
drivers installed that came with the drive or try reformatting the
DVD-RAM as a FAT32 drive.

Good luck,
Vic

Reading compatability charts.

It was not created for DVD-Video. Can you do it? Evidently. Will it
play in any DVD player? Evidently not.

Mti

MOTAR's home site:
http://www.angelfire.com/rock/ motar/index.html

Humm, that's odd.

http://www.hitachi.com/tv/brow se/camcorders/dvd/dzmv230a.sht ml

"MOTAR the imperious" <m @motar.corn> wrote in message

Where do you come up with that statement???

m @motar.corn (MOTAR the imperious) wrote in message < >...



Although you can burn DVD-Video disks now with Nero 5.5.8.2, you can't
burn DVD-Video disks using DVD-RAM and Nero. If you want to use Nero,
you need to use a drive capable of burning to DVD-R/RW or DVD+R/RW.
The only software I know that is capable of burning a DVD-Video disk
to DVD-RAM is Panasonic's MovieAlbum that comes with their LF-321
DVD-RAM/R drive and then these DVD-RAM's will only play back in a
limited number of Panasonic DVD players including the DMR-E10/E20 DVD
recorders, the RP-91K, and the portable LA-95.

Good luck,
Vic

Make sure your DVD player is supported by Nero. DVD-RAM is not the
best format for much of anything other than data back-up.

Mti

MOTAR's home site:
http://www.angelfire.com/rock/ motar/index.html