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Have generators full schematics, want to upgrade socket just 10A

Manufacturer emailed me after phone call to tech support; they sent me the full schematics, service manual, and owners manual of a generator I'm looking at buying(used). They did this even after I told them that I wanted to make the 50A plug a true 50A plug instead of the labeled 40A they sold it as. It is a 2003 model genset if you look at northerntools site you can see a "modern version" BUT, it has a 50A breaker now... Item is a "Northstar" 8.5KW cont. 10KW surge 18HP B&S gas unit with a 50AMP 4 prog plus that only has a factory 40Amp breaker that *appears to be* inline for it as the "OEM sticker" on the plug that say's 120V/40A on the panel. HOWEVER, the first schematic shows that it doesn't appear to have a "40Amp" but has two 35Amp on each side of the plug's 4 prongs off the genset and then they are "Stepped down" for each successively smaller plug ins: 30A 220V; 30A/120V; 2 of the 20(or25)A 120 double plugins. The second schematic hints at(my assumption) the 4 prong plug is not actually breakered... I can offer up the pdf's *if necessary*. I just wish if there was a way to know if the size of wire from generator head to the breakers and then to the 4 prong "50A" plug is the right size to handle 50+amps without melting or IF it truly ius only able to handle"40A". AND if that's the case how can I findout the correct wire size? Then just get the genset and buy the wire and 50A breaker and upgrade the wires on the genset. After all it is truly OEM there is no **** electronics at all on this barely used unit. Too much info? sorry if so. Thanks in advance.

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  • 1 more comment 
  • electryc monk Oct 05, 2009

    Hey joecoolvette, I am no where near offened... :>) I will place my info/clarifiers after your comments...hope this is okay.

    Isn't too much info, and I appreciate your taking the time to list it.
    > (heavy sigh of appreciation) It is with all due
    > respect, that I feel no direct solution can be
    > offered to your query.
    > noted...
    The liability issue of someone posting how to change a manufacturers rated capacity, of an electrical generator's safety device/s, cannot/should not, be addressed by experts in this forum.

    You are asking how to exceed stated safety ratings, for breakers on a generator. The engineers that designed the generator, also took into account the rated safety load of the breakers.
    > exceed safety ratings? I'm not sure about this. I
    > hope i can give a link for the specific part:
    >http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/s...
    > if it get's edited out(sorry in advance) its at
    > northern tool's site and its under generators
    > /generator heads its like $800+ for this unit.
    > I don't believe its exceeding the safety standards
    > -correct me IF I'm wrong- but, from the techsupport
    > phonecall: The head unit's wiring/plugs is
    > supposedly the same setup as all the 18HP+ gensets.
    > So for a specific bit of tech data heres my art:


    >|
    >|------(35)----\ /-----(30)--\-------->
    >| \____/ . \
    [| |] {','}
    | /---(30)-----/--->
    >| /
    >|------(35)------------/
    >|
    (35 brkrs?) (4 prong) (1st 3 prong)

    It is my belief, that should you change any part of this system, you are liable for any occurrence thereafter.
    Good or bad.
    > of course common sense rules (ironic grin) "So does
    > Karma."

    Exceeding a 40 Amp load on a 220 volt line, and the safety device is too large, could be Very bad!

    > Part I. the crude text art above is trying to show the two pos. leads off each half of the windings are set with "35" breakers that each go to a prong of the NEMA L14-50R plug (which IS thee 50AMP plug I'm refering to as a a supposedly 40Amp plug on this one model. The wiring diagram then shows a jumper that continues again to the NEMA L5-30R plugs (one is a 120V the other is a 220V) then on to a pair of NEMA 5-20R 120V plugs.

    > Part II. IF I could then ask a theoretical question would that be more appropriate or is that just not a direction I could ask of this site?

    I hope I haven't offended you in any way, nor do I wish to incur your wrath. I truly wish I could help you in this endeavor, but I feel my hands are tied.

    > Again this has no wrath and is extremely appreciated! Honesty is a very valuable commodity(sp) on the 'NET. Don't loose it (thumbs up).

    -shade and sweetwater,
    steve

  • electryc monk Oct 07, 2009

    Oh shoot. I guess I forgot to clear up that little tidbit about toe 220V. Joecoolvette spoke on.... I DO NOT plan on using the NEMA14-50 plug (currently stickered @ 40A) for 220V. I ONLY want to use it for 120V/50A for our 5th wheel trailer. :>) seems with the second suggestion brought it up I must of mis-spoke in the initial posting? (sorry folks for any confusion this may produce)

    sincerely,
    steve

  • electryc monk Oct 10, 2009

    Avid101 ummm, I rooted around and came up dry with regard to finding your email info... do I offer up my email here like I saw someone else do in a posting(I googled and found some one did this) I'm just leary(sp) of doing something wrong by posting my email ID or the like... I am totally cool with sending you the stuff the manufacture sent me (their PDF's are 4 total(IIRC).

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Isn't too much info, and I appreciate your taking the time to list it.

It is with all due respect, that I feel no direct solution can be offered to your query.

The liability issue of someone posting how to change a manufacturers rated capacity, of an electrical generator's safety device/s, cannot/should not, be addressed by experts in this forum.

You are asking how to exceed stated safety ratings, for breakers on a generator. The engineers that designed the generator, also took into account the rated safety load of the breakers.

It is my belief, that should you change any part of this system, you are liable for any occurrence thereafter.
Good or bad.

Exceeding a 40 Amp load on a 220 volt line, and the safety device is too large, could be Very bad!

I hope I haven't offended you in any way, nor do I wish to incur your wrath. I truly wish I could help you in this endeavor, but I feel my hands are tied.

Posted on Oct 04, 2009

Testimonial: "honesty IS the best policy. Bummer I can't "Wax philosophical" with you outside this realm like a Mentor I have in the Subaru-forums (shruggs) :>)"

  • joecoolvette
    joecoolvette Oct 07, 2009

    I appreciate your kind comments, and value your opinions, although I feel they are overrated in reference to myself.

    I hope in the future if you have product questions, that you'll come back, and 'see us' at FixYa.

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The stated rating is covered by the manufactures 10% built in safety factor so even a 50 amp plug will work as the safety device will kick out if it goes over it's rated amperage by 10 %. Due to out put and the built in circuitry if you overload the 35 to 50 amp or the 40 amp to 50 amp it will not cause damage as the circuit breaker will kick off at it's rated amperage draw when at 100 percent plus 10 % of rated capacity it will not damage anything. so I don't see where your problem is but let me know if you need additional information on ohms and powers law to understand the problem.

Posted on Oct 06, 2009

Testimonial: "I still have the trusty physic's books from college... will try to refresh brain this weekend."

  • 2 more comments 
  • Bruce Hathcock Oct 09, 2009

    If you don't mind and still want advise plese send me the PDF and I can help you some more. Basic thing is if you just replace the plug why not put in a inline braker at 40 amp and be done worring about it? if it's for a motor home the biggest pull is going to be the AC Unit. you can buy a slim line stab lock breaker box and run the wiers to the box and screw it on and have the wiers commin out of the box and hook the wires up using the two 40 amp breakes to the plug that way the 50 amp plug will be ok to use and gives you a better contact surface than 40 amp plug? Am I maiking any since?

  • Bruce Hathcock Oct 10, 2009

    send it here b123153h@yahoo.com I will carbon copy tothe company so I am covered.

  • Bruce Hathcock Oct 18, 2009

    I have found you a replacement Socket If you want it it's free but ya have to pay shipping. E-mail if ya want it.Give here the info and that we want you to recive it and she will tell me how to do it with her help, sorry so slow getting back to you.
    Avid101

  • Bruce Hathcock Oct 18, 2009

    I have found you a replacement Socket If you want it it's free but ya have to pay shipping. E-mail if ya want it.Give here the info and that we want you to recive it and she will tell me how to do it with her help, sorry so slow getting back to you.
    Avid101

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