Here's your problem VR-1 (looks like it is not to...

Well, crap!  I went out and looked for infomation to support the Time to
Climb to 20k to be 7 minutes for the Spitfire F.XIV, but found this instead:
(http://www.fourthfightergroup. com/eagles/spit14pt.html)

I would just like to point this little fact out as well, while I still may.
Spit14 Time to Climb to 16000ft: 3m 57s.  Yak-3 Time to Climb to 16400ft: 4m
5s.  If you extrapolate it out, the Spit14 will get to 16400ft in 4m 3s, a
mear 2 seconds faster than the Yak-3.  For climbing 16000ft, that 2 seconds
means next to no difference about 120ft or so.  The fact of the matter the
Spit14 leaps off the ground faster than the Yak-3 but, from 5k to about 15
or 16k the Yak-3 would have a RoC that is better than the Spit14, and while
the Spit14 would be higher than the Yak-3 initial, the Yak-3 would be
gaining alt closing the 400ft alt advantage the Spit14 would have down low
after the first minute to only a 100ft advantage by the time they got to
16000ft.

The Yak-3 does NOT have this kind of climb rate modeled in 2.0, nor anything
CLOSE to the RoC.

Thanks Pav, I didnt know that. I'm surprised though, because depending
on circumstances, sometimes I will lift off at 80 mph and other times,
for whatever reason, I would rather have a lot of speed built up
before lifting off at up to 160mph. And in ATC some planes just don't
rotate by themselves at a given speed (suprisingly). This would give
noticeably different times though, wouldn't it?

The Smoo

On 28 Jun 2000 09:20:49 GMT, "Pavlov_72nd/MangyDog"

You are right, but arguing over the real data instead of arguing over
somebody suspicious is far more constructive form of arguing :)  Seriously,
who knows, one can prove something then.   Different ball game, really.

And I agree about "Advanced" 100%.

Later\

Oooo man, that's a can of worms.  Kind of damned if you do, damned if you
don't.  If you post the real data, then everyone will argue over the real
data instead of arguing over their suspicions.  Not sure if there would be
less argument or not, but it would take away the counter-argument of "aha,
you just THINK the QB-112 spoofighter turns better than the A14 Matilda."

Bottom line, I don't pay attention to anyone who doesn't fly extensively in
ATC.  If you aren't willing to put up with realistic physics, you really
can't expect to have realistic performance.

"...since we're talking about cruising and climb speed and not turning radius none of those factors even come into play..." ["PTR_Goldberg"]

Sorry, of course they do come into play!

...and modeling could very easily be done in the ITC rooms (which is
ATC w/o stall spins, engine torque and back blast) and since we're talking
about cruising and climb speed and not turning radius none of those factors
even come into play...

Bottom line, I don't pay attention to anyone who doesn't fly extensively
in ATC.  If you aren't willing to put up with realistic physics, you really
can't expect to have realistic performance.

Ahhh don't show that to the Jerries, they'll be pissed.

Sir Soul,
Hang in there just a bit longer Bro. All is not yet lost...
You've been the voice of reason many times, and a champion for the 190s
every time.
The times, they may be a changin'...
Wit

Alas, I have been defeated in The Battle of the Books.  I give up.  I will
submit gracefully to my Limey masters.  This is not a happy day for the
Luftwaffe.  Total capitulation can't be far off.

Soul

Ok, I read my post, and maybe it is harsher than I meant it to be.  But
still basically true.

I flew the D12 today for a little while, just to get a taste.  Strikes me as
a fine plane.  Good power, fast, especially with WEP.  Much better fuel
endurance than the Spit, and if you don't believe that makes a difference in
ATC, yer wrong.

I got in a couple of scraps.  Won a few HtH, lost a turn fight.  Duh, big
surprise there, especially when I engaged a Corsair that had alt on me.

One thing I did notice.  The D12 is extremely stable at high speed.  This is
very important in ATC for firing, and especially for HtH.  The combination
of stability and huge guns makes it a great BnZ fighter.  I vaporized a
couple of La-7s at the merge.

Seems to me that as long as you don't go trying to out-turn other planes,
the 190-D12 is a fantastic plane.  Just like the pony.

Not a question of cheating, or integrity, but if you want to make this topic
just as emotional as you possibly can for yourself, go right ahead.

More a question of bias, which will be reflected in results, and selective
reporting.  You focus on the areas that support your arguments, and ignore
those that don't.  It's human nature.  The only way to escape it is to get
the data and comparisons from those that have no ax to grind.  Get someone
who flies ALL the planes equally to do the testing and comparisons.

Dang Pav.. thats almost the exact number I got during testing... hmmm...

def

then why do you bother reading the NG? only a handful of pilots fly ATC as
it is...and modeling could very easily be done in the ITC rooms (which is
ATC w/o stall spins, engine torque and back blast) and since we're talking
about cruising and climb speed and not turning radius none of those factors
even come into play

Goldy

i love to see real facts about other countries planes...gives me a better
idea what i should be able to do when facing them in combat...

PTR_Goldberg

LOL sure ya would...all you'd have to do would be start turning and the 190
would lose all of it's E so fast it would plummet to the virtual dirt as you
filled it full of lead =)

Goldy

funny how realistic is nothing like the real thing...ever fly Aces High? now
that game is hard!! LOL

PTR_Goldberg

he only talks about the German planes because that is what he flys...listen
to people like Pavlov if you want to hear about the SU planes..and the rest
of the pilots posting in here about the other countries..

PTR_Goldberg

What about a Brown Nosed Yak-3?  Nope, never seen one of them either.

glitches are glitches m8...no matter how big...they all need to be fixed and
this is the forum to state them in =)

Goldy

i believe they made it brown for all the trigger mashers to fly in the
dirt..hehehehehe

Goldy

what about SOME kind of paint job on the 109k? it's just dull steel
colored..LOL they need to give it Hartmann's paintjob with the black roses
=)

Goldy

<u @downed.com>

could that be because they don't know what they are either?

Goldy

Well then, you don't pay attention to 75-85% of the people that play
fighterace.  Yes, it's very realistic to have no high speed stall and AUTO
trim isn't it?  I appreciate when you told me how to recover from spins in
advanced, but this holier than thou attitude of yours about advanced is
tiring.

Soul

Yer constant whining is tiring too, Soul.  Boo hoo hoo, the German planes
aren't as good as we want them to be.  You have the right to say what you
want, sure, but after a while the "VR-1 hates Germany" stuff just gets old.

I have NEVER heard anyone in ATC complain about the modeling of the German
planes.  Never.  Wonder why that is?  And there are always plenty of GE
flyers in there.  Funny how that works.