Peace treaties in the O-C-R wars

: I assume that, since you have
:: yet to give any reasonable explanation for the fact that, for example,
:: the first chapter of Genesis has the sun, moon, and stars created
:: after the earth (not quite consistent with the big bang);

: THIS is one of the easiest parts; the mistake is reading "earth" for
: "eretz". This Hebrew word has many meanings as it is, and many others,
: as well as I, read B'reshith 1:1 as

Can you cite a single instance where "eretz" means "universe" outside
of your interpretation of Genesis 1:1? Can you cite an example where
it clearly means something other than "earth" (again, outside of
Genesis 1:1)?

And if "eretz" means universe, then how is it that the seas and the
dry land are formed, and the plants are created, if the earth hasn't
been created yet? (Land, seas, plants are created on day 3, while
the sun, moon, and stars are only created on day 4.)

: In the beginning, God created the universe and "shemayim"

And just what, pray tell, is "shemayim" supposed to be? According
to the Big Bang theory, the universe is all there is. So you've
already come across a contradiction in the first sentence of your,
umm, translation.

: Do you believe that the probes and astronauts we have sent into the
: solar system have been in heaven?, Then they must have been in
: what the Torah calls "haaretz".

This is a false dichotomy. It is possible to believe that the opening
chapter of Genesis does not and was not intended to provide a
scientifically accurate cosmology or astronomy. As I have said, I'm
pretty sure that in the Biblical era, if you asked someone what would
happen to the astronauts, you'd get an answer along the lines of "they'll
go splat against the raq`ia." Thus our idea of what the heavens are
like is not included either in "shamayim" or "eretz."

:: that it refers
:: to a "raq`ia", which is clearly (from other uses of the word and from
:: the meaning of the root) understood to be a physical object -- again,
:: not quite consistent with the big bang;

: This is quite consistent; the impossibility for "real" objects to
: exceed the speed of light puts an effective shell around the physical
: universe. The commentary of Hertz about the birds not flying in
: shemayim, but "in the face of" it, also applies to the sun, moon,
: and stars.

First of all, the speed of limit barrier is not a physical object. Second,
the "raq`ia" is explicitly described as dividing the waters below it
from the waters above it -- and if it's supposed to be the "speed of
light barrier" then you've got a problem with those waters that are
travelling faster than the speed of light. Unless, I suppose, the
light created on the first day is the Cerenkov radiation from high
energy particles traversing those waters.

You might want to reread Genesis 1:14. "y'hi m'orot b'riqi`a hashamayim."
And 1:17: "vayyiten otam elohim birqi`a hashamayim." Not *in the
face of* anything but *in the firmament*.

:: that the passage itself explicitly
:: defines "mayim" to be water (rather than your fanciful decision that
:: it means "any fluid that fits my preferred meaning");

: Does not Hebrew use "mayim" for other fluids? At least many languages
: do this; hard liquor is called "whiskey" or "aquavit", meaning literally
: "water of life".

Despite over ten years of invitations to do so, you have yet to provide
an instance where the word "mayim" is used to mean anything but water.
But in the very passage that you cite (1:9) the waters are gathered
together to reveal the dry land (which God calls "eretz" btw).

:: and that
:: Maimonides was able to claim that Genesis is consistent with the
:: Aristotelian cosmology;

: As a scientist, Aristotle was almost a total flop. Modern science
: had to get rid of his influence to progress at all.

That's exactly the point. If Genesis 1 is "consistent" with the Big
Bang and simultaneously "consistent" with Aristotle, then I conclude that
its "consistency" or "inconsistency" with any given cosmology has no
significance except as an intellectual exercise for people who have
far too much time on their hands.


Richard Schultz
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system
of government."