Harmon Kardon "high current" receivers

Yes, there is some validity to Harman Kardon's claims of "high current."
Because "Watts" are not just "Watts."

Amplifier power, expressed as Watts, is actually the product of two things:
Voltage (Volts) and Current (Amperes).

The formula is very straightforward:

Power (Watts) = Voltage (Volts) x Current (Amperes).

Current is far and away the most important factor in determining an amp's
ability to drive a loudspeaker.

Unfortunately, when looking at amplifier power ratings in Watts, it is
impossible to determine how much current the product can generate. Most
manufacturers choose not to publish separate current measurements. You
figure out why.

Harman Kardon and very few others publish figures for the "High Current
Capability" of their amplifiers and receivers in brochures and manuals.

Another reason why "Watts" ain't just "Watts" is widely varying measurement
standards.

Any comparison of Watt ratings is meaningless, unless you know the answers
to all of the following questions:

1. Were the measurements made with all channels driven or just one channel?
(You can sqeeze out higher numbers by measuring with only one channel
working, but how often do you use only one channel in the real world?)

2. Across what frequency range were the measurements made?
(20 Hz - 20 kHz should be the absolute minimum. And if they don't specify 20
Hz - 20 kHz, it probably isn't.)

3. Into what impedance load were the measurements made?
(An 8 Ohm load is pretty much the measurement standard, but lots of AV
products give you figures for 6 Ohms or even 4 Ohms. An amp will deliver
TWICE as much power into a 4 Ohm load as into an 8 Ohm load, so you need the
specified impedance before making comparisons.)

4. How much distortion does the amp generate at the rated power output?
(Power is useless, unless its CLEAN and undistorted.)

For instance, I just looked at the brochure for an AV receiver with built-in
DVD player that claims 5 x 25 Watts. But the small print says that this is
into a 4-Ohm load, only at 1 kHz and with a frightening 10% total harmonic
distortion!

Harman Kardon and some other serious brands measure power with all channels
driven (2 channels for stereo or 5 channels for surround), with the
frequency range, impedance and distortion clearly specified, according to
FTC guidelines (U.S. Federal Trade Commission). And if they don't say so, it
probably ain't so.

But more to the point, numbers are basically pointless anyway. You need to
experience the product with your loudspeakers in your room. If it can go
loud enough and stay clean enough to suit your needs, then that is really
all you need to know.

Al Jones

"flguy" < ...

You did 2 things wrong here, but don't worry.

1) you bought it at CC and actually listened to their BS, that they made up.
2) HK's "high current" is a marketing gimmick and no more(sorry to inform
you)

Have you ever heard one of the better brand receivers this low on power? If
not, even clean, dynamic power will sound good when not doing a direct
comparison against one of the better competitive manufactures(read: 'one of
the better' as Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer Elite, ect. One of the not
better would be Pioneer Sony, Technics, Aiwa, Kenwood, etc).

No, because HK truly doesn't have higher power output in general, than
Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, etc. of equal ratings.

No, likely 50 "high current" watts per channel on a Harmon Kardon amp is
equal to say, 50 "high current" watts on a Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer
Elite, Sony ES, Sherwood Newcastle, etc.

Absolutely!!!!

#

HK does tend to under rate their receivers by about 5 - 10 watts compared to
the competition, so they have a very minimal edge in power output. However,
their actual power output is very low compared to the actual power output of
a competitive receiver priced the same and even below.

IMO, when you consider that HK has no phono preamp stage, less audio and
video inputs, less digital inputs, lower actual output power, they are
simply a very poor value!

BTW, a good indicator of actual current(amps) is 4 ohm power output and 5
channel driven power outputs. HK is actually worse when compared to the
competition priced at the same cost.

Don't worry, as long as your happy with your HK, it sounds good to you and
still is working, enjoy it!

Exactly, I'm an electronic Technician so current values are high on my list
of priorities.

It's a decent site, but it's dedicated to the 5 channel driven formula only.
My priority is music. I like to see what an amp/receiver can do with 2
channels driven at 8 ohms and most importantly, 4 ohms. 1 watt distortion
measurements are also important as most people general don't listen at
concert levels. Another few parameters are good to know, as decent noise
control, good frequency response, good digital lineararity, "DYNAMIC
POWER"(unfortunately few reviewers test for this any more)and low
intermodulated distortion(which most testers don't look at). While the good
ole magazines of yesteryear didn't test for 5 channels driven, they did test
these parameter. Those magazines being Audio Magazine, Video Magazine, and
Stereo Review. The later two being rolled into Sound and Vision which is
alright but nothing as good as the predecessors. Since Audio Magazine was
retired, Sound and Vision previously was trying to pick up on the listening
tests and more thorough lab tests. BTW, before Audio Magazine went "GREEN",
it was my favorite publication. By the time it died, it's reviews seemed to
be more of a paid endorsement!

Let me explain, I do give music high priority and therefore, went with the
Yamaha RX-V2095. The Denons and Onkyos of 'that day' just weren't as musical
IMO, but very good none the less. IMO, all other brands followed my top 3
picks, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo. Since that year, Denon dropped the average
performing and problematic AVR-3300. It was replaced by the AVR-3801. Here
on this NG and on the forums, the AVR-3801 was said to sound much better
than the AVR-3300, being very close in sound characteristics to the much
more costly AVR-4800.

I recently went on a quest to obtain Dolby Prologic II, Dts:Neo, and
assignable digital inputs. I recently was looking at a brand I never really
liked previously, Marantz. A few years went past and thought they may had
improved on the performance. After reading a review in Home Theater
Magazine, on how the SR7000 had poor 4 ohm current output and under rated 8
ohm power output, I decided against the SR7200. Not 2 weeks later, S&V
reviewed the SR7200, pretty much describing it as the worst receiver they've
ever tested in performance tests and listening tests!! I was considering it
because I could had bought it for a low price of $660. IMO, that was much to
high for a receiver that offered lower performance than mass market
receivers selling for $300.

I then found a good deal on the Onkyo TX-DS797. I was ready to jump in if I
could find a buyer for my current receiver. Unfortunately, I found that it
lacked a very high priority performance feature IMO. It does not offer an
'analog bypass' mode that will allow the use of the bass management and the
use of the subwoofer(both Yamaha and Denon offer this). Direct Mode disables
all filters and outputs the signals only to the main front speakers. To use
the subwoofer and bass management, you must 'accept' that all analog signals
will be converted to digital through the digital processing of the
receiver's "analog to digital"(ADC) circuits. This is terrible if you plan
to use an audiophile CD player that has better DACs(digital to analog
converters) than this receiver. Plus, the high performance and resolution of
the analog signals from DVD-Video 2 channel 96/24 sound tracks, HDCD, DTS
CDs, Albums, and any other analog signal will be thrown out since all analog
signals will be converted to the receiver's DAC's resolution and performance
which could(most likely) be of lower performance, added with the signal
degradation of an unneeded analog to digital conversion. BTW, I found out
Marantz also does this unfortunate act!

Yamaha receivers do not convert analog signals to digital when the "effect"
modes are off. I had this confirmed for me by Yamaha a few times. Denon's
AVR-3802 manual states that it's direct mode can be used with the subwoofer
output.

For these reasons, I would have to suggest Denon or Yamaha for musical
output. BTW, without bass management, most speakers will have added
distortion from the higher levels of low bass frequencies. This high
distortion( and perhaps damage, if driven to loud volumes with smaller
drivers) added to the inaccurate bass reproduction that most full range
speakers are guilty of doing, just can degrade the overall musical
characteristic that one is trying to achieve at this price level.

Also, some subwoofers(read as very few)offer a high pass crossover for the
main speakers. This would allow the speakers to operate without the
distortion and the boominess that full range speakers are guilty of doing.
By hooking the subwoofer up to your main speakers, adjusting the high(for
speakers) and low(for subwoofer)crossovers of the subwoofer, a good
performance could be had with a receiver that doesn't offer bass management
with a direct function. There is a few downsides, tuning the high and low
crossovers to match, where a smooth slope transition is accomplished, could
be difficult. Of course, using line level speaker outputs would be less
ideal than using a pre-amp level signal.

Don't forget that "MOST" subwoofer's don't offer high pass crossovers, even
the expensive ones. Without having a high pass crossover, your back to boomy
bass filled with speaker destroying distortion output.

I would personally go with a Denon or Yamaha, which ever offers the better
features, power and by all means, the better sound to my ears.

Yamaha has released 2 new models, the RX-V1200, 80 * 6 ($900) and the
RX-V2200, 100 * 6 ($1200)

Denon's AVR-3802(110 * 7) has just been dropped in MSRP to $1000. I can
personally get it for $900 right now. While the Denon offers 2 rear center
channels instead of 1, like the RX-V2200, it doesn't have all the Yamaha
input conveniences. If Yamaha's RX-V2200 was $1000 it would be a toss up. As
it stands now, the AVR-3802 is the winner(if it sounds as good as the
RX-V2200).

I decided not to ditch my Yamaha RX-V2095. Basically, the 2095 was the
competition to the high Denon model, AVR-4800. The 2095 did not lack in
sonics or in performance of any kind, compared directly to the AVR-4800.

I can only think that the lower classed RX-V2200 and AVR-3802 will have
inferior amp sections. I don't know how inferior the actual sound quality
would be(most likely not much), but losing a large amount of money by
selling my RX-V2095 and stepping down in the amp section, persuaded my to
keep my excellent 2095. I'll worry about upgrading to DPL II and Dts:Neo in
the future. I'm pretty happy with the RX-V2095 with absolutely no
complaints, other than it being slightly obsolete.

For me, used from only a trusted person I know, otherwise new.

Stay away from the AVR-3300. They had several design flaws and were very
unreliable. Denon had a bulletin fix, but it was a hassle to most. BTW, this
is the only model I've ever heard having problems from Denon. Denon is
usually a solid company, but this was their lemon.
#

No problem, enjoy your HK in your bedroom and enjoy the new surround formats
in your personal theater.

...

Actually, 100 watts isn't that much louder than 35 watts. 100 watts
is 4.5 dB louder than 35 watts, and 4.5 dB ain't that much. You can
hear what various dB differences sound like at
# .

The "high current" feature is not formally described by H-K's sales
literature, so it's hard to say what it really means without some
formal technical and listening tests. Since I have separates, my
motivation to run out and buy a H-K receiver is kinda limited.

On the best day of its life, a high current receiver would only show
an advantage with low impedance speakers. IOW if you had NHT speakers
which tend to be on the high impedance (easy load) side, the high
current feature would be pretty useless. If you have speakers like
KEF Q-series speakers, which tend to be on the low impedance (tougher
load) side, then there may or may not be an audible benefit.

"high current" power to

If there is actually a difference in terms of technical performance,
the audible difference would depend on the impedance of your speakers
and how you actually play your system.

The difference for most people, is probably kinda moot.

Wow, what a great, and clear explanation! Thank you very much! I
guess at this point I've sort of narrowed my choices down to either a
Denon or an Onkyo. Now the question is whether to go with a new
model, or pick up a used one on eBay, e.g., Denon AVR3300 for what I
would have to pay for a new one. My son-in-law has the AVR3300
driving a nice set of five B&W speakers, with a Polk sub, and he loves
the AVR3300... swears by it. Says he's had it on every day for two
years without a single problem. I've had a couple upscale audio store
elitists tell me Denon's newer receivers are not being built as well
as their older gear, but I felt they were just being a little petty
because prehaps they don't sell Denon any longer. The guy at
Crutchfield recommended either Denon or Onkyo, and they handle pretty
much any brand, as we all know.

Any thoughts on buying used versus a newer but weaker powered
receiver? Any preference between Denon and Onkyo (or maybe even
Yamaha)??? Thanks very much for your long and helpful answer

Bob D.

Take a look at the post by Albert Jones. Interesting

Great, THANKS MUCH!!!

Based on the advice in this newsgroup I've decided to go with either
Denon or Onkyo. Any preference? How about buying new versus used?
Used receivers are pretty good value versus their original price,
e.g., Denon AVR3300 for around $400 - $500 used versus $900+ a year or
so ago new.
It's fine for where I'll be moving it... the bedroom... but it isn't
Digital Dolby, which I want now. You guys have got me salivating over
moving from ProLogic to DD/DTS! Thanks for your long and thoughtful
reply Bob D.