Recording live jazz sax

Not just TV, but live with a video mix (not broadcast).  I spent years doing
this at the East Coast Jazz Festival and got grief from my audio "producer"
but in the end, he had to admit that it translated best to the overall image
that the TV was presenting.  I just wish I could get a real video producer
to realize that the solo is now on the piano player and not the damned sax
player! <g>  I use the trick of picking up unused mics as a jazz sax player
walks back into the soundfield and it works fine.  It helps when the video
feed is right there for me to reference, but I always amazed people with a
prominent sax even though he was off mic.  Took a little doing to get the EQ
right quickly, but that's our job, right?

--

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
R @SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681

"Lorin David Schultz" <LSchu @ctv.ca> wrote in message

Look, do you want to argue technicalities or do you want to make a
good recording? If you think that a piece of hardware can do a better
job than you can, then by all means use it. But if you're an artist
too, you can make decisions as to whether an adjustment is needed, and
how much of an adjustment. A good recording engineer doesn't just set
up hardware, he plays it like a musicial instrument.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mriv @d-and-d.com)

I don't know if that's what you meant, but a good compression device for jazz/ funk saxophone is the Vocal 400 by Digitech.

it's actually a vocal modeling floor processor, but it works great with brass and woodwinds. I heard a lot of musicians use this and their sound was great. You can create presets with this baby, add effects (not only reverb and such. even auto-wah) and record. It got a lot of other features that you can read about on it's product page. Also, you can connect it using a USB interface directly to you PC (or mac I thing) and then it becomes a multi-track recording work station.
I really recommend this thing. Just bought one myself and it's great.
One of the main advantages of this is that you can adjust your sound in the middle of the show if you hear something you don't like.
Links:
Product's page
Product's manual

If this product is not what your looking for... :-)
I found I great article about recording woodwinds and brass instruments on the MTM site (music tech magazine) and it's free to download it.
it includes a "how to", and suggestions about which mic, set-up, compressors and such to use.
here is the link for this one.

Hope this helped! (Don't forget to rank me! :-))

This may be the first time I've disagreed with you, but paying attention is
the ultimate to getting good tracks.  Allowing hardware to do the job is
just lazy.  And I admit, I'm lazy.  But I dont' get every ounce of
information that people like Mike Rivers and John Vengrouskie do.

You're talking about printing something to tape and working with it
afterwards.  The question was about "LIVE" work.

--

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
R @SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681

And I'd have to agree with Mike.  Riding the fader, particularly with a
compressor on the instrument, means that you can control the overs without
killing the dynamics.  What, do you think it's only possible to set the
overall volume and then simply employ a compressor?  The concept, as far as
I know, is to allow the most dynamics and only use outboard to catch what a
human wouldn't catch in a one pass situation.  If one relies on equipment to
do their job, they get a job that isn't distuinguishable from any other job.
Good people pay attention.  JnyVee is an excellent example.  Even when he
KNOWS it's right, he pays attention to each and every detail.  Consequently
he gets it right first time, every time.

And no, minute volume changes do not cause a compressor to react as you
think.  Paying full time and attention causes a compressor to react correcty
based on what the human element is hearing.

--

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
R @SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681

So what? The artist may or may not play in such a way that the dynamics will
work in the context of the mix. More often than not in my experience some
alteration of level is needed in the mix. This can be as simple as lowering the
level in one place or as complicated as constant gain changing throughout the
song.

When I record synth organ these days I print a track of signal which does not
go through the players volume pedal. This usually works in the mix better than
the volume pedal track. What feels right to the player while the performance is
being recorded is usually much too dynamically extreme for my taste.

Garth~

"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
  Ed Cherney

Yes... I know how a compressor works. My point was that any volume changes,
using either a fader or compressor (which is a fast, automated fader), do
not technically leave the dynamics to the artist.

-S

I agree with this.... they might not completely ruin it, but chances are that
they will be employing some extremely fine gear dedicated to this purpose.

DM

Wouldn't "riding the fader" -not- be leaving the dynamics to the artist?

After all... all compression is doing is "riding a fader" anyway.

-S

Why?  Jazz sax players move around all the time, so compression isn't part
of the performance.  If you try to bring it up too much when they are away
from the mic it doesn't work, and no sax player that I've worked with in
maybe 700+ performances has created a problem recording the sax correctly
without compression.

Ride the fader, leave the dynamics to the artist.

--

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
R @SirMusicStudio.com
301-585-4681

In article <HZ8Ga.14150$YZ2.8990@rwcrnsc5­3> productionso @attbi.com
writes:

I dunno... taming individual instruments will prevent one "excited"
phrase from pulling down the entire mix.  When mixing for TV, I think
it's a good idea to prevent individual elements from running away too
much.  You can let the overall performance rise and fall with the mood,
but keeping a handle on individual instruments will result in a mix that
sounds more natural on TV.

--
"I got into audio because I like pushing buttons...
 ...never figured on all this freakin' wire!"
- Lorin David Schultz

Not really. The compressor doesn't know what else is happening
musically, it only knows what the sax just did.

"Riding the fader" doesn't mean taking every peak down to the same
level, it means that when the sax is getting just a little too loud,
you drop the level and leave it there through the passage. Kind of
like having a compressor with a release time of half a minute or so
(which some do, but that's probably not how you'd set it).

--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mriv @d-and-d.com)

Brad,

That's what it's all about.... dynamic range, that is.  It's very hard to tell
from your statement of "3-4dB of compression" whether or not you will
set the compressor to touch 'average' level notes or not.  It shouldn't
IMHO.  It should only touch the very tops of the player's loudest notes.
This will take a lot of watching and tweaking to be certain that it's not
overdone as it will change from song to song and certainly from date
to date as the mics (may) or the venue sizes change.

One key to keeping the balance is not to let other instruments drown
out the less dynamic passages of the soloists.

If you're recording to multitrack for post mixing, I wouldn't worry about it.
If you run the 78 at 24bits, you realize that it's not backward compatible
and the tape will not play back in earlier DA-xx machines.  Besides, some
of the better, least expensive compression you can buy at mixdown time,
is manual or automated fader control.

I'm in Dallas, if I can help, LMK - jazz is a preference, from swing to fusion.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingst udio.com

They'll do that anyway. You might as well make a recording that you
like and then let them ruin it.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mriv @d-and-d.com)

Search for a used Ashley CL-50 mono, or a CL-52E stereo.  Definitely 'sleepers'.
The RNC is do-able, an Aphex 651 (solid-state) or the Compellor are sweetly
innocuous.

Whatever you end up with, let me beg you not to over-do it.  It need only touch
the tops of the strongest, most dynamic notes played.  Jazz mixes should blend
smoothly without a lot of trouble - certainly without a lot of compression.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingst udio.com

Yes, I will be recording on a Tascam DA-78HR at 24 bits as well as the HD
cameras. I just wanted 3-4db of compression on the sax. I am a drummer and
have played with many different jazz sax players in the Dallas area. I know
that these guys can have an extreme dynamic range.

Brad Harper

Can't you track it uncompressed and tinker with the bits later?

Why? What makes you think the sax needs compression? While there's a
lot of dynamic range (on the meters) with a sax, taking it away really
makes the instrument sound unnatural.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mriv @d-and-d.com)

The reason it might need a little compression is because this will be shot
on HDTV for broadcast. If I don't deliver it with a relatively tame dynamic
range they will squeeze the hell out of it later with who knows what kind of
limiter.

That's why.
Brad Harper