Question about 2004 Pontiac Grand Am

6 Answers

I have a 2004 Pontiac Grand Am V6. The first problem I had is when I would put in park and say run into the store it would just die (only happened a couple of times) and I didn't think much of it. I then drove to work, car ran fine and then when I was ready to leave work it wouldn't start or even turn over. I had it towed to a local mechanic and it was the neutral safety switch. After that was replaced the car ran fine for another week when I started to leave work it would turn over but not start. At that time it was determined to be the fuel pump as when you turn the key to on you couldn't hear the pump engaging. So I replaced the fuel pump and it still would turn over but not start. I then replaced the fuel pump relay and followed the wiring from the fuse box to the fuel pump and it was good but still not turning over. I finally jumped the fuel pump relay and it engages and disengages with the ignition key and the car started right up. So I drove it to work for the first day and on the way home the a/c wasn't getting cold (found out the compressor is not engaging), the thermostat started to heat up a little and the low fuel warning light/buzzer came on when I still had about 4-5 gallons of gas in it (I filled it up and it only took 9 gallons). I am now wondering if it is something in the PCM or ECM or is there a common ground that makes all the same relays in the engine compartment fuse box not grounded. I have taken the car to autozone and their tool only came up with one code stating a heated oxygen sensor. Those modules are very expensive and people say that they have replaced them and still have problems because the module really wasn't the true issue. I have also checked all the fuses and relays.

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  • 18 more comments 
  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    Where would I find one of those scanners? The scan tool I used at autozone showed nothing and I called a couple of mechanics and they said that if autozone didn't show anything then neither would theirs.

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    Where would I find one of those scanners? The scan tool I used at autozone showed nothing and I called a couple of mechanics and they said that if autozone didn't show anything then neither would theirs.

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    I am hoping someone can help me with this..I'm about ready to pull my hair out.

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    Well I know the starter is not disabled or it wouldn't even run. But I'm curious as to why the fuel pump and relay won't work normal but the car will run just fine when I jumped the fuel pump relay?

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    How would I go about checking the battery ground? Would the battery ground make the a/c compressor not engage (since it works but no cold air)?

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    Yes when I talk about the a/c compressor..It runs when the a/c is on (and yes the freon is charged) but the actual part that I guess you would say magnets and starts when you turn on the a/c button will not engage. You can actually open the engine, see the compressor, have the fan running and then turn on the a/c and see that the part is not connecting and engaging. The fan part works ok but no cold air.




  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    Had to buy new battery cause other one wasnt charging and was warming up when trying to charge.

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    Would the ecm bethe reason the ac compressor not engagging also?

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    just seems odd that all these things go wrong at the same time. They all have to be connected in some way and one common thing wrong. Just having an extremely hard time finding that one wrong thing.

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    I called the dealership and they don't have a machine to specifically test the pcm/ecm. They would have to go through everything at least 2 hours.

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    I called the dealership and basically they said they would have to go through everything to diagnosis and that there isn't any machine you can just plug car into and tell what's wrong.

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    So if its the pcm then it is possible that just a part or two is faulty that it runs..i mean if the pcm is bad would all aspects of what the pcm runs be bad or off?


    Also can i replace the pcm with one from the salvage yard? I called them and they said the pcm/ecm is just one part not 2 seperate.

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    Is the pcm something you can get and use from the salvage yard?

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    Your saying bcm and others have said the pcm...Im confused on which. The dealer said no program to just check bcm.

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    I have a 2004 grand am so it has a pcm (not an ecm) right?


    Also should i be worried about replacing the bcm?

  • mshell7171 Sep 09, 2010

    So with the problems I am having should i replace the bcm or the pcm?


    Also do you any information or links as to what each of those units control?

  • mshell7171 Sep 10, 2010

    I just ordered a body control module today to install...was that the wrong choice?


    Also, if i have to order the pcm do i have to get it programmed and does it need to be done at a dealer?

  • mshell7171 Sep 10, 2010

    So you said the car needs reprogrammed after pcm installation. what happens if you dont reprogram car?


    Also if i install a bcm does programming need to happen to?

  • mshell7171 Sep 10, 2010

    Well im still confused about which part to replace..the bcm or the pcm. i ordered the bcm and will get monday but now im 2nd guessing myself that i should of got the pcm. im so confused

  • mshell7171 Sep 10, 2010

    does the car need reprogrammed after bcm install?

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6 Answers

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  • Expert
  • 4,070 Answers

HI! It's definitely a PCM (powertrain control module) issue. The PCM has connectivity on all electrical current that runs inside the car including the engine and transmission. If the PCM is faulty everything fails. You will need to have it replaced. You don't have to replace the ECM for it just controls the air and fuel mixture of the engine plus the PCM drives the ECM too. Hope this helps and thank you for using FixYa!

Posted on Sep 09, 2010

  • dj_relly999
    dj_relly999 Sep 09, 2010

    There are times that the PCM cant be read by scanners. So you can drop the scanners and go for the PCM replacement.

  • dj_relly999
    dj_relly999 Sep 10, 2010

    Hi! How's it going?

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  • Master
  • 1,297 Answers

No common ground for all your problems and I would ignore the O2 code because that will not cause a no start

there are some TSB's out there for similar concerns but since you already replaced the fuel pump that's taken care of

therefore, since you say you can jump the relay and the vehicle will start you are basically looking for things that prevent fuel pump operation like the ignition switch input because regardless of what is going on with everything else, when the ECM sees the key in the on position it turns on the fuel pump for 3-5 seconds unless it sees a CKP signal

therefore, jumper a testlight to the ECM to confirm it sees the key switch

assuming that input is good then you are probably looking at an ECM replacement

Sorry

Posted on Sep 10, 2010

  • Sean Reisdorf
    Sean Reisdorf Sep 10, 2010

    the Autozone "scanner" is nothing more than just a code reader

    the technicians "scanner" will read "live" data
    however, the cheapest scan tool that will do what you want is about $2000
    My newest one, which has all the bells and whistles is $8000 plus an additional $1000 year for updates and on-line data

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  • Pontiac Master
  • 17,970 Answers

What year and model is your car?

ECM = Electronic Control Module (prior 1995 computer, OBD1)

PCM = Powertrain Control Module (1995 and newer, OBD2)

The Engine Control Unit or ECU is a designated computer that was developed to manage the engine control system. The ECM consists of electronics which are mounted on a multi-layer circuit board. The ECM monitors and adjusts the air/fuel mixture and utilizes a catalytic converter to minimize the amount of pollution produced from the engine. There are two modes of operation, closed loop, which means the computer has completely taking over the operation system. And open loop which is used when the engine is cold and operates on a preset program. The engine must be at operating temperature before it can go into closed loop.

If you need any physical solution, visit this link: ECU_ECM_PCM_TCM_BCM_COMPUTERS

Hope helps.

Posted on Sep 09, 2010

  • ZJ Limited
    ZJ Limited Sep 09, 2010

    When you talking about the BCM, is about the BODY CONTROL MODULE, this device is diferent to the PCM or ECU/ECM.

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  • Pontiac Master
  • 14,036 Answers

TAKE TO DEALERSHIP OR GARAGE PROBLEM COULD BE IN THE PCM AND BCM.HAVE THEM SCAN CHECK THEFT SECURITY SYSTEM IT WILL DISABLE STARTER AND FUEL PUMP.LET GARAGE FIX BECAUSE THEY CAN FIND A PROBLEM QUICKER WITH DIAGNOSTIC EQUIPMENT.IF TRY FIXING AT HOME YOU SPEND TOO MUCH MONEY BUYING PARTS YOU DONT NEED.

Posted on Sep 09, 2010

  • 3 more comments 
  • Jonah Oneal Sep 09, 2010

    YOU COULD HAVE A BAD BATTERY GROUND CABLE.IT WILL CAUSE THOSE PROBLEMS YOU ARE HAVING.

  • Jonah Oneal Sep 09, 2010

    the dealership has a special scanner.they can use their scanner to check all pcm sensors functions.transmission function,abs brakes system, and air conditioner functions.the auto zone has a code scanner just used to retrieve codes and erase them.you could have a bad battery or a bad negative battery cable.have battery load tested check out you could have a short in cell in battery.if your battery over 4 years old.

  • Jonah Oneal Sep 09, 2010

    I AM LOOKING AT A ELECTRICAL DIAGRAM.STARTING PROBLEMS, FUEL PROBLEMS,AIR CONDITIONER ALL TIED IN THE BCM OR BODY CONTROL MODULE.HAVE DEALERSHIP CHECK IT OUT.I SAID LAST NIGHT IT WAS BATTERY AND GROUND CABLE BUT LOOKING AT DIAGRAM PROBLEM COULD BE IN THE BCM.

  • Jonah Oneal Sep 09, 2010

    TRY ANOTHER KEY SEE WHAT HAPPEN BECAUSE IF KEY WORN AND THE BCM DONT RECOGNIZE THE KEY IT WILL CAUSE THOSE PROBLEMS YOU ARE HAVING.

  • Jonah Oneal Sep 10, 2010

    THE PCM CONTROLS AND MONITER ALL SENSORS CMP - CKP - IAT - MAP - EGR VALVE - VSS - TPS OR APP SENSORS. MAF - O2 OXYGEN SENSOR.PCM CONTROL TRANSMISSION SHIFTING. PCM CONTROL AC - CRUISE CONTROL MODULE -ENGINE COOLANT FAN . PCM CONTROL EVAP SYSTEM.PCM CONTROLS AIR INJECTION PUMP - PCM CONTROL IDLE SPEED, FUEL INJECTORS, FUEL PUMP RELAY, AND IGNITION TIMING.THE BCM IS TIED IN WITH PCM.THE BCM CONTROL INTERIOR LIGHTS, HEADLIGHTS,RADIO TURNS THEM OFF AUTOMATICALLY BCM LOCK DOOR LOCKS WHEN VECHICLE GOES IN GEAR ,BCM CONTROL DOOR CHIMES,BCM AND PCM CONTROL THEFT SECURITY SYSTEM IN WHICH BCM CONTROL IGNITION KEY SWITCH AND ALTERNATOR.IF ALTERNATOR FAIL IT WILL SET OFF CHIMES. WHAT PROBLEM YOU COULD BE HAVING IF BCM GOING BAD BCM + PCM WILL DISABLE FUEL PUMP RELAY.TURN OFF FUEL SYSTEM AND DISABLE IGNITION TO KEEP CAR FROM CRANKING.BCM IS PART OF AC CONTROL MODULE.TAKE TO DEALERSHIP LET THEM CHECK BCM.SEE ITS GOING TO BE EXPENSIVE FIX.AND THEY CHARGE YOU BUY HOUR SCAN IT.BUT YOU CANT FIX IT YOUR SELF.EVERY THING HAS TO BE REPROGRAMMED I BEEN A MECHANIC SINCE 1987 OLD CARS FROM 1950S UP TO 1992 AND 1995 YOU COULD PUT A NEW PART IN KEEP TRUCKING.BUT CARS FROM 1996 UP TO 2010 CARS HAS TO BE REPROGRAMMED.CANT FIX AT HOME YOU WOULD NEED A TECH 2 SCANNER I SEEN A USED ONE FOR $3000.00 A NEW ABOUT $6000.00 VECHICLE MADE NOW YOU CANT TOUCH THEM.WITH OUT THEM EXPENSIVE TOOLS CANT WORK ON THEM.

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  • Master
  • 560 Answers

If you have to jump the fuel pump relay to keep the engine running, check all of your fuses related to the EEC and fuel pump circuit, Better yet, check all the fuses period, with a test light..Key on , engine not running. If all ok ...Check the ground signal send terminal from the ECM to the Fuel Pump Relay. It will show a ground for 3-5 seconds every time you cycle the key from off to run. If no signal is present to ground,You might have a bad ECM as it sends the signal to the fuel pump relay for 3-5 seconds when the key is first turned on, then contiouously while cranking the starter as long as receives a good signal from the CKPS (Crank Position Sensor) And if You dont have any codes but the o2 sensor, it is either a bad ECM or a wiring fault between the ECM and Fuel Pump Relay.

Posted on Sep 09, 2010

  • 1 more comment 
  • Cool Blue Services
    Cool Blue Services Sep 10, 2010

    Your vehicle has a PCM (Powertrain Control Module) Yes, you can get 1 from a junkyard. But, it MUST be the same application PCM. In other words, the year, make, and model, including the engine type must match. Sometimes, the production date of the vehicle must be considered as changes are made during the year the vehicle is produced and the PCM will be different too. Your GM Dealership will give you the year/month ranges which cover the PCM in your vehicle.

    However, before replacing it, the wiring from the PCM to the fuel pump relay should be checked first to be sure there isn't a open circuit in the wiring preventing the relay from operating. It will require a "pin out test" from the PCM pin that controls the relay. If the pin is sending the proper signal to the fuel pump relay circuit, then the circuit would have to be repaired, and replacement of the PCM wouldn't be necessary. If the pin is not sending the signal, then you would replace the PCM. This procedure should be done by a technician with the lbowledge and proper DMM as to not damage the PCM. It is a delicate electronic component that can be destroyed if the proper procedures aren't followed exactly as described in the shop manual.

  • Cool Blue Services
    Cool Blue Services Sep 10, 2010

    Yes , the PC M. will have to be reprogrammed (flashed) with a special diagnostic / program tool at your local G. M. dealership . I believe they are still using what is called a " Tech 2 ". I haven't worked for a GM dealership for over six years now . Therefore , the name of the tool may have changed .

    Regardless, the PCM has to be flashed because of your VIN number . Each PCM is serial numbered electronically to each vehicle with the vehicle identification number , or VIN number . Also , updates regarding the computer parameters with respect to how it controls the engine and processes data are programmed with the same tool when you have it flashed. If you don't have this done , the PCM may still work , but I would suggest doing it the right way . Furthermore , if you live in a state where vehicle inspections are done yearly , the inspection computer is linked to DOT, and your VIN is automatically provided by your PCM when they link the DOT computer to your OBD2 data link on your vehicle . If the VIN doesn't match your vehicle's VIN plate, you could have a serious problem to explain to the local police authorities......

  • Cool Blue Services
    Cool Blue Services Sep 10, 2010

    OK , I reviewed the rest of your comments . You will replace the PCM , not the BCM . the BC M. is the the body control module . It controls several interior functions inside the vehicle . However when you have the PC M. reprogrammed at the dealership it will be matched to the BCM . Or , paired with it . The PCM is the computer that controls the engine functions including your fuel pump relay circuit . You can visit Autozone.com web site . There , you will enter your vehicle information and you can access all the information regarding your PC M. as well as diagnostic information to help you further diagnose your vehicle's problem . It's free . There is no charge . And it is very easy to use as well .

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  • Master
  • 11,896 Answers

It may be the pcm. I would have a scanner/code reader put on it for a diagnostic test.

Posted on Sep 09, 2010

  • 8 more comments 
  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Sep 09, 2010

    ebay or autoanything.com or autobarn.com . 02 sensor is what tells the computer how much gas emission is flowing through the exhaust. Then it helps adjust the air/fuel ratio.

  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Sep 09, 2010

    If the a/c pump is working but no cold air and the unit is charged with good freon, then that would be the clutch. Either it is faulty or has no power too it. The battery ground can be tested with an ohmmeter, By disconnecting the end that is not grounded, and place the ohmmeter on that connection and another good ground. Should have an infinite reading.

  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Sep 09, 2010

    That does run on it's own circuit. But It does have temp sensor, that temp say is either connected to ecm or pcm. It may be the ecm and that could cause a problem. It may also be a a/c clutch, bad compressor, bad relay, or bad temp sensor.

  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Sep 09, 2010

    Yes, everything is electronical is connected to it's own circuit. All circuits are connnected to the ecm. The main computer. In the circuitry, it is also connected to the pcm for power control. If you are not getting power to the circuits or sensors, test pcm. If you have power to them but they are inoperative, test ecm.

  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Sep 09, 2010

    It takes about and hour or more to run a diagnostic scan. They will need to run a scanner/code reader to do test and check for any error codes, then they also have a diagnostic machine that takes a while and runs test and checks circuits.

  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Sep 09, 2010

    Yes you can. Just make sure it's from same era and engine. The middle vin number will need to be the same.

  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Sep 10, 2010

    If you go to autozone.com and register for a free account. Then login, choose vehicle year make model and engine size. Then choose "view repair manual" That should help you out a bit. If all the circuits and devices have power, then pcm is good, and ecm may be faulty. If no powre to all the circuits and controls, then pcm may be bad.

  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Sep 10, 2010

    When you buy an ecm or pcm the middle vin number must be the same. It will be set for you car. The modules do work but the computer needs to be reset after the installation which people don't always do. Then it can take up to 20 starts for the computer to re-learn everything.

  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Sep 10, 2010

    Since not all circuits and devices on the pcm are non responsive, that would indicated that it is likely good. The bcm has everythything connected to it which carries the information to the computer. The bcm is likely bad because only some and not all components are reading correctly, which means information from the bcm is not getting received at computer. Bcm should be changed. You can get one from the salvage yard.

  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Sep 10, 2010

    No it should not

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