M3 vs. Z28 ? Was: 1996 Z28, 480hp, $16,900

m3 for sure any german car around can definitely out handle/grip an piece of american muscle ever created.

No doubt. With enthusiasm and excitement also sometimes comes bias and
stubbornness.

Unfortunately, I'm familiar with this attitude.

This is what I remember, and actually I was one of these people for
quite a while. I owned a 1986 Monte Carlo SS, two 5.0L Mustangs (an
AOD and a 5-speed) and a 1994 Formula 6-speed. I was one of the
biggest detractors of more expensive performance cars that fell (in my
opinion) close to the performance envelope of my car du jour.

The thinking was, if my <insert domestic ponycar here fast in a straight line as a <insert imported performance car here it can easily be made to handle as well and go even faster with the
money I save.

Then, I came across this one guy who was the most belligerant and
stubborn of all the import owners I had yet seen. On AOL, he and I
tangled pretty often, with his view being that all domestic
performance cars were garbage including the Corvette, and mine being
that his car was overpriced, understyled and not any faster than my
Firebird Formula.

The twist to this was, my 1994 Firebird started falling apart
(literally) about a year after I bought it. I had paid $12.5K up
front, so I had a decent amount of equity left so I was going to turn
it in and pick up a new WS6 Trans Am. I would have wound up shelling
out about $29K for a fully loaded Ram Air (I even had the silver paint
picked out as a fresh change from the black I'd owned) and I was
already looking forward to this jerk getting his nose rubbed in my
sub-14 second timeslips for still thousands less than he paid.

One day, I was planning to drive to the Pontiac dealer to check out a
Ram Air they had on the lot (I was going to order mine) when I
happened to spy one of that dork's cars sitting on a lot in my town.
Yes, I was going to test drive this piece of crap and run back home,
jump on AOL and tell the guy how lame it was and how much better the
Firebird felt.

Trouble is, I drove that pearl white 1995 300ZX TT and it did the most
insidious of things -- it made me fall in love with it. The first few
corners I tookopened my eyes REALLY WIDE to the wonders of a truly
well-built chassis, IRS and a world class suspension. The next day, I
called the Pontiac guy to forget it.

I paid almost exactly $7,000 more for the 300ZX than I would have for
the Trans Am with WS6, and it was worth every single penny. The solid
feel of the car, the smoothness, the 13.8 second timeslips, the
age-resistant styling, the build quality of everything from the knobs
to the rims... I was in shock for months as the car failed to exhibit
any signs of breaking, squeaking, rattling or failing in any way. I
did burn up the clutch before I learned that you can't slip it to get
maximum boost all the time, but that was my fault.

The funny thing was, the guy on AOL never believed me that I sold my
Firebird and bought a 300ZX. He just absolutely refused to take my
word for it.

But this car has taught me many things I'd never have believed. That
you really can't compare a car like a Supra, 300ZX, MR2, RX-7, etc. to
a Mustang, Camaro or Firebird. They are as different as night and day,
and two completely different approaches to performance and cost.

I have no problem believing that a new LS1 Firebird or Camaro could
edge me out at a stoplight showdown these days. I just know what that
after driving a new LS1 Z28 a couple of months ago, I slid back behind
the wheel of my 300ZX and was blown away at how much better my 2.5
year old car felt compared to that brand new Camaro. Everything from
the shift linkage to the steering feedback reminded me that the Nissan
was made to spare no expense while the Chevrolet was made to go as
fast as possible for as little money as possible. And of course, I
could always pop for a $1500 Stage III kit to regain the lead.

I still like the F-Bodies and the Cobra Mustangs and all that. I even
crane my head to watch an SVO turbo go by or a Grand National. But you
just can't change the fact that the imported 'supercars' like the M3,
Supra, etc. were made to be World Class while F-Bodies and Mustangs
were made to appeal to the Graduating Class.

*Donning asbestos garb*

SNIP

Ken - the BMW is a really nice car, though not to my personal taste.
That said, "handling" means different things to different people. If you
mean the ability to go from point A to B faster than another car as your
definition of better "handling", in terms of the current M3 vs. 4th gen
F-body, consider the following.

No one with the slightest degree of sanity, conscience, or expected
longevity races cars of this caliber anywhere near their maximum
potential on a public road for more than a corner or two. Most of the
"races" with such cars that involve corners consist of the more foolish
or immature driver pulling a manuver that the other driver doesn't care
to match. Both cars are very difficult to drive anywhere near their
limit, because the limits are so high. What happens on the road proves
little about the ultimater capabilities of either the cars or the
drivers.

The only way to settle the issue would be on a track, and in that venue
both the track chosen and the driver would play a very large role. Stock
for stock the cars are probably very close with equal drivers on a
typical road course. Unmodified, I would bet on the BMW in an endurance
race though. On the road, where most "races" that use all of the
potential performance are either straight line or on a multilane highway
where WOT can be used until traffic intervenes, the M3 and LT1 cars are
pretty even when stock. A stock LS1 F-body will blow away a stock M3. If
you don't believe it and have a stock M3, I'm sure there are people
reading this with stock LS1's who are willing to prove it to you.

If you start talking modified cars, the whole question becomes
impossible to answer in the abstract - either car can be made very, very
fast depending upon how much time/effort/money is expended. I will say
that there are likely more modified F-cars than BMW's - so if you drive
a stock M3, be careful out there.

Rich (never beaten by a Beemer) Krause

P.J. Hartman < <
But there are people out there who thing the "end-all" car is a z28 with a
few mods. I feel sorry for these naive people as they "just don't get it".
But most z28 owners are cool and realize that there are much better cars
out there, but they need speed more than handling and comfort features. I
just try aviod the
"I was tortured throughout highschool so now I'm going to blow you away
(whooopee) at every stop light that I get to and you can read my 'bad bow
tie' sticker, or my 'im the village idiot with my calvin pissing sticker,
but I try to look cool to my 'neck friends" kind of people.

I think your in the minority with your mindset here -- at least where I
live. I do respect you for it, but it seems like the majority of Z28 owners
just got done watching "dazed and confused" for the 100th time, and the only
purpose their cars serve is driving around, looking to beat some ass.
I have driven one, as well as a number of other cars I would put in a
similar class, and while I don't "hate" the way the feel, I don't like it
either. They arn't sports cars, pure and simple. They're handling and
features (and in alot of cases power) don't outmark the majority of
big-three four-door sedans out there, and there's something wrong with
that --
It's true that they can be modified fairly cheaply, but I respect myself too
much to go very fast in one of these cars. I could have modified my 85'
Renalt Alliance aswell, but I really don't want to kill myself at this point
in my life. I don't trust the cars, and I can't believe the number of
people that do. 100MPH feels alot better in a Civic than it does in a
Camero, and both pale in comparison to a BMW at those speeds. My 633csi
feels "right" at 100 -- it's doesn't at 70 or 80.
And there are very few cars that can do that. And it's 15 years old!

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that there are alot of people out
there who own Z28's becuase they don't know anything about cars. If they
did, they wouldn't buy one. Not saying that's everyone, just the majority
of the purchases I see around here.

Good post Rich.
I visit other forums more frequently than this, but it looks like the same arguements everywhere. So what if a beemer has so much better engineering, it's still gonna cost twice as much. If that's what you wanna do... have fun. I've owned Chevy's all my life, starting with a 68 eL Camino 14 years ago when I was 15 (I still have it, It's got a 454 now). I drive a 96 Z28 daily (160,xxx miles). I worked at a dealer auto aution where I got to play around with a lot of different cars on the 30+acre lot there, bmw, benz, ford, gm, chrysler, toyota, etc... I found that my "cheap *** z28" hangs on any given road (other than dirt or gravel, but I still go down them, do that in your beemer) with almost any car. I can take a cloverleaf at 60mph without the tires squealing. Could I go faster? yes. Do I need to? No. People start these forums to justify themselves buying a much more expensive car that is equal to or just slightly better (performance wise) than an "outdated live axle" domestic. Woopity doo. I hope reading this post is as much a waste of your time as it was mine writing it.

I own a 96 Z with 160k miles...

The stock long block and typical bolt ons with a very conservative cam modification, runs low 12s in the qrtr mile and mid-high 7s in the 1/8th mile.

I've run numerous M3s and they've never presented a contest of any kind. I've run one M6 and put half a car on him, when he got off the throttle, conceding the contest, at roughly 60 mph in a full throttle, straight line acceleration.

Several of the runs with the M3s were in moderate traffic and while the M3 seemed to give fair chase, there is no chance that any of the M3s, as presented; the technical status of which is unknown... other than all cars were presented in clean, well kept and in appeared to be in superior condition by all discernable measure, could ever be considered 'competitive' with the Z28. I'm sure the Beemer is a fine ride... but the Z28 isred blooded American Muscle; a class which the M3 BMW simply is not designed to tangle.

That's what I thought...

But after browsing through the alt.autos.camaro.firebird news-
group, it seems as though they've convinced themselves that
their Z28s can actually outhandle an M3. Stock for stock. :)

I've been a subscriber to the 2 muscle car newsgroups for a
while and I've always noticed a hostile attitude towards _any_
other car which comes their way. (It almost seems as though
they're living in their own world !) I've seen posts comparing
their cars to 911TTs, Vipers, Supras, etc. and they've all
come to the conclusion that their cars are better due to their,
"With the money I save I can ..." attitude. Pretty sad if you
ask me.

Ken.

I don't see this at all in the F-body group.

Comparing what we drive to those other cars
is normal, but I doubt you'd find someone
who bought a Z28 and said with the money
I save I can be better than a Viper. Is it
true yes, would I ever do it, no because no
matter what, it still wouldn't be a Viper.

There are some cars that I do not care for
and don't see paying the price for. The new
911, sure its a Porsche, sure it handles well,
but we drive on roads, not on race tracks,
and I do believe I would give a 911 NA
a good race, and if he wanted to go the
quarter, if I was having a good day, beat him.
Sure, its a little faster to 60(4.8 quoted, I ran
a timed 5.11), but its slower in the quarter.

Would I buy a 911 though, no, the GTS is
still more my style. Does this make the 911
bad car, no, but it does not make my Camaro
a bad car either.

Also, as soon as your find a new 911 driver who
would actually want to race, I'll let you know.
Saw a new Silver 911, the guy wouldn't go, not
even a little, he looked down upon my lowly
Camaro. Alot of older Vette owners do the same
to me, they look down on us, that is until we
leave them behind...

I have said this before, you will not, and cannot not
find a new production vehicle with warranty that performs
better than the Z28 for pure price(19,800 base), or
a little higher any other F-body, and at even a higher
price, but better driving required a Mustang Cobra.

Maybe that Prelude handles better, but thats on paper,
so what if he corners faster than me, I'll still blow past him
once I get around the corner.

In American mags, Acceleration is what is the focus, and
GM has brought what was once, and still is considered
near supercar performance for 20K. They did a comparo
on all the super cars, Vettes, Porche 911 NA, Lambo,
Ferrari 355, Espirit, Panoz Roadster, and the Aston Martin
DB7 couple. Cheapest car the Vette at 40K, twice the
cost of a F-body. I'll take the Z28 numbers from this months
Hot Rod review except where I have other data
not provided, or personal confirmed and tested
numbers(Vericomm 2000PC).

Here is how they compare, numbers only:

Braking from 60:
Panoz 110 feet
Ferrari 355 F1 111 Feet
Porsche 911 111 Feet
BMW M Roadster 115 Feet
Corvette 116 Feet
Lotus 118 Feet
Camaro Z28 120 Feet
Viper GTS 122 Feet
Aston Martin 125 Feet

Slalom 600 Feet in MPH:

Viper 72.5
Ferrari 70.8
Lotus 70.0
BMW 68.7
Porsche 68.7
Panoz 66.9
Aston 66.7
Vette 66.2
Camaro Z28 60.7(taken from earlier MT review, HR doesnt do slalom)

0-60mph

Viper 4.1
Lotus 4.4
Ferrari 4.6
Panoz 4.6
Vette 4.8
Porsche 4.9
BMW 5.1
Camaro Z28 5.1(me, timed with Vericom, 5.2 says mag)
Aston Martin 5.7

1/4 Mile:

Viper 12.2
Lotus 12.8
Ferrari 13.00
Vette 13.2
Panoz 13.3
Z28 13.3(HR article, CHP did 13.2's)
Porsche 13.4
BMW 13.7
Aston Martin 14.3

Lateral G

Viper 1.01
Lotus .98
Ferrari .97
Panoz .94
Vette .93
Porsche .92
BMW .91
Z28 .88
Aston .87

There were a few tests which there are no
comparison, 1 mile accel and 0-100-0 times.
Although as soon as I understand how to use
the Vericom better, I might try the 0-100-0 myself.

It obviously lacks in handling, but still doesn't do that
bad considering its only 20K, you can get a 1LE cheap
too and turn better numbers that what I have here, plus
those numbers from MT are pretty good when comparing
them to other reviews of those cars.

So, when it all comes down to it, the Z28 comes within a
few percentage points of all of these cars except
in the slalom, and to be perfectly honest with you,
I do not know if they had the GSCs or RSAs on the test
car, so it might be a little better. For 20 grand, you cannot
beat that and there are no arguing with the numbers.

--
Eric - '98 Black Z28 M6

Please remove the * and .GOV to reply
by E-Mail.

Your point that dollar for dollar, and performance for performance, the Z28 is
tough to beat. I too grow tired of the people who say they would buy X car and
with the Y amount of dollars they saved, they would make is Z seconds faster
than another car for the same money.

However, I also believe that there are a lot of aspects of a car that cannot be
measured quantitatively. Sure a loaded Z28 will beat an M3 in the quarter
mile, but that's obviously not the end of it. (Not trying to pick on the Z28
exclusively).

I haven't really followed this thread, but I recognize your name (well, your
.sig), and I understand from where you are coming. "This, my friend, is where
you and I differ."

NSX or Lingenfelter (sp?) modified C5 Vette? I'll take the NSX.

But that's just my opinon...

-Drew Boyles-
Replying to will get your mail bounced back. To email, do so
to domain: mccallie.org, username: abboyles.

You realize you're taking these numbers and stacking them up, mixing
and matching yours to those from various magazines and that it means,
essentially, nothing.

I'll also be bold enough to challenge the veracity of a completely
stock 1998 Z28 LS1 with T-56 manual running better than a 13.5.
Whatever you ran, I can't really comment on. I do know that in all the
mainstream publications, tested LS1 F-Bodies do not outrun Corvette
C5's. Claim to know different, claim to have seen it, whatever. There
are always specialty magazines with ludicrous times for certain brands
of cars. I even remember a 13.9 out of a bone stock 5.0L 1989 Mustang
sedan a few years back. Do you think 5.0 Mustangs were capable of
that, on the whole? No. And LS1 F-Bodies are not, on the whole,
capable of 13.2, 13.1, 12.9 or whatever fantastic timeslips you've got
or seen.

While your car may be about as fast in a straight line as a 911 N/A,
please don't delude yourself into thinking anything on your car is one
billionth as well engineered and balanced for performance as that
Porsche (or most other upscale performance cars). That little VW
sibling is built for handling and speed, not to win drag races. No
matter how you fiddle with figures, you can count on it thrashing your
live-axle sled back to the stone age in any open road competition.
I've owned enough 80's and 90's ponycars to know that. As for a 911TT,
you can forget even touching that, even in drag races, unless you
start modifying your F-Bod.

I'll say this, too. That LS1 I drove sure didn't feel like it had a
13-anything in it. I'm not just talking bottom end, either. I cranked
it up thru the gears a couple of times and it left me wanting. Maybe
it takes some getting used to, but I expect more instantaneous
response from a V8, I don't care if it's made out of aluminum, alien
composite fibers or moon rock. It almost felt like it had turbo lag.
My old 275hp LT1 Formula felt much more responsive and easier to flog
through the gears.

The point is, you don't NEED to justify a Camaro next to an NSX or a
911 or a 300ZX. It's great at what it does (go fast) and good enough
at the other stuff to keep it respectable. It's just not in the same
league as those other cars in terms of build quality, engineering,
refinement and general well-roundedness. There is much more to life
than drag racing.

My guess is that the poster was making a joke. A while back we had a
person drop in, claiming that a Mustang could be made to out-handle a
97+ Corvette with just a few hundred dollars worth of "subframe
connectors, shock tower braces, panhard rods, etc."

Without having been though that exchange, though, I can see why you
wouldn't have come to the same conclusion as I.

--
P.J. Hartman mailto:
Corvette, Talon, MGB, ZX-11, GS450LX, and Neon
http://www.tconl.com/~hartman