Question about 2002 Jeep Liberty

1 Answer

Have an 02 liberty. Cut out on me. turns over but wont start

Have an 02 liberty. New engine 12,000 miles ago less then year old. Today i turned it off about 3 mintues later started it up,backed out of parking space, put it in gear and it cut out on me. Tried starting and it started up for about 3 seconds then cut out.You give it alot of gas and it stumbles but wont start. Almost like when you start it without the security chip and it turns off. Mecanic told me to see if fuel pump was working and the pump cut on. He had me reset the security where you lock the doors and unlock them etc thinking it was the security on it. It will turn over but not start. had to get towed home yet again! Shop cant work on it for over a week. I need my vehicle. Any help be appreciated.

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  • 2 more comments 
  • msgilland May 26, 2010

    Wow you gave some very helpful advice.i feel a little better about it not being the engine itself. We do have a digital multi meter. Did have a hanes manual but it grew legs and walked off!So have to get another one. The guy who towed it asked if we had replaced the crank sensor when we did the engine because that is there problem alot and i told him unless it comes on a new engine we didn't. About 100 miles on the engine we replaced 1 of the o2 sensors because the engine light came on. Which it did not this time and we was told you cant get a code if the light is not on. Let me throw something else out at that may narrow it down.

    I noticed a few times when i first did a start up it would cut right back off and i thought i just wasnt getting the key turned all the way. It did this for about 3 weeks almost daily on the very first start up. If it sat awhile it did it on next start up . It was not noticble enough that my husband did not notice it. then it didnt do it anymore.
    When i tried starting it yesterday after it cut out on me............ some guys there said give it alot of gas.........so i did and it made a noise maybe like the sound of a heat shield rattling but you could hear it going thru the exhaust. When i let off gas it cut out. I didnt want to mess with it too much for fear of doing more damage. But after it set a while and my hubby got there we tried starting it and it stayed running a few seconds since had been sitting awhile. He wanted to hear the noise i was talking about so he did it and said that didnt sound good so we decided to take it to the shop.
    I really appreciate you taking the time to go into this in detail with me in a language i can understand. I think tomorrow i will get a new manual and try to check some of the stuff you mentioned since he wont take it into the shop til next week. So without having the manual here.........basically i am just checking the voltage on the sensors to see if they are within range? Oh an i dont have a sledge hammer if i did my eclipse would be in pieces!! When i get this running i will pick your brain about my 91 mitsubishi eclipse. Thanks again for your help.

  • msgilland Jun 02, 2010

    Yeah i was not expecting that. Although i did have a gut feeling because that is how this past year has been going with all our vehicles!! The worst senerio there is. Look up powertrainproducts.net if you have time. they sound good as far as rebuilding them. My mechanic uses advance auto parts for his engines. But i went with this company. The mecanic never took the engine apart. He just listened to it i guess so has not gotten anything apart as far as i know because its still in same spot outside. He is a decent mechanic who used to work out of his garage but got too much work (worked on both my parents cars thru the years and friends) so bought a shop and hired some help. He said the engine looked good when i picked it up. Said he could tell they had did the hot test on it and was good and clean so we didnt suspect any problems.. I have the paperwork where he put it in for me. then we got the oil changed 4 times i think on it. My husband changed like he does and we used the oil the mechanic recommended in it. So i have the advance store receipts where we purchased the oil and filter each time. THats it as far as records i guess. I did get him to put a pulley on the front cause kept making rattling noise and at 100 miles put on o2 sensor on it because engine light came on. but thats it since the new engine. THe reason we put the new engine in it is the oil pump stopped in my other one only had 95,000 miles on it. Thanks for the heads up on the crank kit.. and i will get the manual online. BTW i love listening to click and clack...i can usually guess whats wrong. Guess that comes from helping my dad work on cars alot when i was younger.lol. I will let you know updates on it for your input. I gave the mechanic the number to the company because the warranty says for the mechanic to call. He was not very happy about doing that!! Said i purchased the engine i should be the one calling them. So i was little irritated with him on that one. He never got back with me on whether he did or not. Thanks again. More updates to come.

  • msgilland Jun 12, 2010

    I have the 3.7 liter engine.I belive it is the k engine. the 02-03 libertys had sludging issues which they fixed in the 04 engine. From the complaints i had read on it (of couse after my liberty made a slight clink noise driving down interstate and the oil light popped on we immediately turned it off but they said was too late..no warning whatever until that 2 seconds there)the drain hole is to small going to the oil pump and sludges really bad and keeps the oil from getting to the pump.
    I finally contacted warranty place my self after 2 weeks. THey got in touch with mechanic.. Shipped me a new engine out thursday and should have it beginning of next week. Going on week number 3 now.They spoke with him and told him how they work the warranty (guess he ships engine back and then they pay him) and he said he was fine with that.The guy at powertrain products has been very nice to me. he asked if any lights or engine noise and i told him no it just cut off and kept cranking but wouldn't start. He said it does come with a warranty for that reason and people put it together and they are not perfect they were on backorder for a week. The next time he called me he said they had shipped it and i should be up and running next week. So im hoping the rest of the process will go smoothly. I have not spoken to my mechanic in about 2 weeks. Just the powertrain people. I do think they test them once they are back there.
    WHo do you buy your parts from? We have an advance store and fisher (who is twice as high on parts and weve gotten bad parts from them). Then 20 minutes away is autozone and napa.As an inspector what kind of documentation did you need? I had faxed them the purchase order, papers where engine was put in, and copy of warranty papers before i spoke with them since my mechanic had not called them and i wanted to get the process started. he called me within 20 minutes of receiving them and my mechanic(no answer of course). He did not ask me for anything what else would i need? I have the receipt where i purchase the oil and filter for it. where i purchased an o2 sensor at 100 miles and also a pulley that would make noise when it was first started up (made rattling noise) that he put on in less then 5 minutes. No recipts from him on that as he didnt charge me. Other then that nothing has been done. Thanks again for all your help

  • msgilland Jun 18, 2010

    Engine update to my troubles......not good......They finally got an engine in stock and shipped to the shop supposed to be there beginning of week. Never got an answer from shop and no one there when get off work. My dad is friends with him (he is younger then me but they helped each other out alot) so i asked my Dad to check on it. He went by this evening and was there when they did the WARM UP and had gotten it in just needed to put hood back on. Dad called and said it was fine for few minutes then IT STARTED KNOCKING!! It was running though (which the other engine would not even run and made no knocking noise)They called warranty place and got no answer and is going to call back tomorrow. said something about getting someone to listen to it decide what they wanted to do, i dont know if they meant someone local looking at it or Powertrain Products. I was just so aggravated at that point going on 4 weeks later and still dont have a vehicle. So on the engine with less then 12k on it they (dad and brian the mechanic) looked at it and something about brian noticed metal flakes when he looked at it in the intake i think he said and possible the valve seat came out? Im sure you know what im trying to say.... This is the engine that just came out of it. engine number 3 has not even been driven yet and is knocking..
    I am not sure on the synthetic oil i know brian had said to get the 5wt oil since it had sludging problems so we have been gettin that. I would have to look at receipts. We had just did an oil change 3 days before and used 5w30 gtx castrol. thanks for that info. we did oil change at 500 miles then about every 3000 after that.... So please tell me what you think the deal is with both engines from Powertrain Products failing in such a short time. I changed oil like i was supposed to by there specifications. Did i change it too often? Thanks for your help.

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  • Jeep Master
  • 6,982 Answers

First things you need are a digital multi-meter and a chilton or haynes manual (together, both are far cheaper than the first incorrect diagnosis you may make)
Second, you will need time to first study the manual and run diagnostic tests on each component.
Every engine needs fuel air and spark in order to start and run Air is pretty much a "given" unless there is a big fat woodchuck stuck in the air filter box. Air flow is regulated by the throttle body which simply opens and closes when you press down on the gas pedal.
(which should really be called the air pedal)
The computer sensors see the internal conditions: TPS "watches" how far you have depressed the pedal. Computer sees that info and changes fuel delivery ans timing according to info from there after comparing info from other sensors, MAP measures the difference in external (ambient) air pressure and compares it with manifold vacuum.Map sensor info translates to proper shift points, engine timing changes and fuel delivery etc. Manifold air temp, measures exactly that.
Coolant temp sensor monitors the engine temp by measuring coolant temp Crank position sensor sends a signal telling the computer exactly where (what position the crankshaft is in) And cam position sensor tells the computer what the position of the camshaft is.Usually an engine will run with a bad sensor except for the tps, cam sensor, and sometimes map sensor. Your asd relay needs a signal from the crank sensor (through the computer) or it will not permit fuel to reach the injectors and will also prevent spark. The cam sensor does much the same thing. Crank Position sensors have a relatively high failure rate so I'd look at that first.
O2 sensor(s) measure the amount of O2 present in the exhaust and send that info to the computer which alters fuel delivery to attempt to keep exhaust "in range" of pre-set parameters.
The IAC (Idle air control) is not a sensor. It responds to what the computer tells it to do in regards to keeping the air in "balance" with fuel flow at idle.
Carburetors remained relatively clean because the fuel and air was mixed there and sent down to the combustion chambers. With injection, only air goes through the throttle body and that leads to "crud" deposits that can obstruct the valve or keep the plunger off the seat and alter the air/fuel mixture. Passageways need to be cleaned and the plunger end as well...but, never turn the plunger while doing that.
The computer takes all the information and uses it to maintain proper spark control and fuel delivery for every load condition.
The computer needs a good connection to all sensors, a good power supply and good ground.
Always check those things before testing. A bad connection in the ignition switch can cause a low or no current condition at the computer. Your engine has two main grounds (battery to block and block to firewall) but also has several smaller ground connections on the fenders and block, all of which need to be clean and secure. Always test with a known good fully charged battery or no test info is valid. All fuses need to be tested before running any other tests.

Bottom line: A shop needs to do the same testing I mentioned that is in the manual. A shop also has a hand held or larger scanner that helps them run tests faster.
Find out whats missing (spark or fuel) and work first on items that make that happen.
Most common failure is the CPS. Fuel pump is second in line, but if you hear it running likely it's good (but make sure the fuel is reaching the injectors...a dirty fuel filter can prevent that)
Guessing gets expensive and the manual will come in handy for many repairs later (never a bad thing to have)
If you have any questions along the way just ask and I or someone else will give you an answer.
Most times running a full diagnostics can be both annoying and frustrating. Keep away from sledge hammers the urge to use them may overcome you but if you stay with it, you can find your problem.

Posted on May 26, 2010

Testimonial: "Very knowledgable. he explains stuff in a language you can understand and seems to know what he is talking about. Too bad he dont live near me...i would make him my mechanic;0)"

  • 17 more comments 
  • Richard Scordino May 26, 2010

    Haynes is an OK manual; for normal mechanical repairs. Their electrical section ti abysmal (been in the business a long time and their diagrams (schematics) are severely lacking)...Go for a couple of more $ and get a chilton. since I semi-retired, I mainly do Jeeps only because I like them (have 5). but can sometimes help with other makes (Ill tell you if I cant).
    CPS sometimes won't set a code but is often damaged when swapping engines due to it's proximity to the flywheel. (too late now, but best to remove it and replace it after the engine is back in)
    By the way...we do this free but do appreciate ratings.

  • msgilland Jun 02, 2010

    We couldnt find a chiltons manual. Advance and auto zone didnt have them. Neither did the library. So waited for the shop to call today. I finally had to go by there because they didnt call and wouldnt answer the phone..... Well bad news..........they said it was something in the bottom end of the engine internally. That the engine shook when tried starting it. so now i got to call the place i got it from. Powertrain products in maryland. I just purchased the engine in july less then 12,000 miles on it. Very aggravated at this point. Spent almost $5,000 on getting a new engine put in and having to deal with it again. They said it should be covered under warranty so im hoping it is. Just wish they had called me friday when they looked at it and i could have had the ball rolling on it earlier. I was really hoping for a cheap fix for this and need a vehicle quick.

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask.

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask.

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask!

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask!

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask!

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask!

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask!

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask!

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask!

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask!

  • Richard Scordino Jun 02, 2010

    Wow! Didn't see that one coming! Generally, it's been my experience that a good rebuilt engine is far more reliable than a new one. simple reason is that once an engine is heated and cooled a good number of times, everything that is going to move has moved (as the block expands and contracts the metal takes a set) When building race engines using a factory block I never used a new block for that very reason. The pitfall is that some rebuilders do not replace parts that should never be re-used such as crankshafts....Older ones had sufficient metal on the journals and could be cut...new ones are thinner (to save weight) and when machined, are prone to going egg-shaped during use. Some rebuilders use "head plates" others do not. Some skimp on other components as well and do not internally clean out every internal passage.
    Even if using the best parts, if you have under-qualified people putting them together, your chances of getting a good one are far lower than they should be, considering the cost.
    I hope that you have all your maintenance records as they will be important when making a claim. I'd also ask to see exactly what the shop found, and photograph it if you can.
    Keep those photos on file as they may be important somewhere along the line.
    (don't be shy...it's your car!).
    One thing I suggest is that if the company tells you they want to put in a "crank kit" instead of replacing the engine...do not do that....any debris will remain in the oil passages and will quickly damage the new parts.
    I still suggest you get the manual I recommended. You can buy one on-line. Even if you never pick up a wrench, it will give you the knowledge you need to understand what the shop is telling you.
    Good luck
    Any questions you need an answer to feel free to ask!

  • Richard Scordino Jun 03, 2010

    I would never recommend advance auto parts for anything. I lost a perfectly good engine because of a defective $30. part that they refused to warranty. (they rely on the manufacturer who in this case, flat out lied to me and advance and they backed him up even though I proved he had no idea what he was talking about!) They buy their stuff from "the lowest bidder".
    I have built hundreds of engines...none failed. (except the 7,000hp ones that don't last more than a half mile if that long)
    Believe it or not, you'd have better luck rebuilding your own "by the book" and by using the best machine shop you can find. I know you are pressed for time so just go with the one they send you. I spent some time as a warranty inspector...that's why I told you to make sure you had documentation for everything. The company you are dealing with will likely send an inspector at which time they will want to see exactly what failed and why.
    One note....oil pumps don't fail....generally a bearing fails and lowers the pressure so the oil light comes on. After the failure the pump can be damaged by debris.
    By the way...which engine do you have in there?

  • Richard Scordino Jun 12, 2010

    Of the parts stores you mentioned, I'd likely use NAPA. They tend to be a bit higher in price than the "discount" parts stores but I've never gotten "junk" from them either. Only documentation you'd need is oil change receipts. (since the failure is lubrication related).
    Since there seems to be a design related sludging problem with your engine, I recommend you run it on a good quality synthetic oil.
    It's nearly impossible for a synthetic to form sludge (molecular bonding is more stable) For some good info on that google noac volatility tests.
    What you experienced is the primary reason I don't like warning lights...usually they tell you that you have just lost your engine...
    A gauge tells you well in advance that something isn't right. I still don't understand why they don't use a buzzer like they do on boats!
    Good luck with the new engine!!



  • Richard Scordino Jun 18, 2010

    Quick lesson about oil. The first number (in your case 5) is how the oil pours at 0 degrees (f) so a 5, flows like a five weight oil. the second number is (in your case 30) how well the oil maintains its lubricity at 220 degrees (f) the letters, (se, etc) have a lot to do with the additive package (most oil has much more than oil in it...detergents, anti foam agents etc) Therefore if you lived in Michigan or Canada, you would want a oil with a very low temp pour point (a 5w oil)
    Most good synthetics post those numbers as "decorations" on the can because the real numbers are off the scale. A company called Amsoil makes one with a posted # of 0w50.(and actually exceeds those numbers). The difference between a synthetic and an organic based oil is that a synthetic is made from "cloned" molecules that are all the same size and have a stronger molecular bond. When subjected to heat or shearing forces (like a crankshaft spinning inside a bearing while under load) An organic oil begins to break down into chemicals that have little or no lubricating quality (acids and sludge) A synthetic does not do this. In fact, the primary reason for changing a synthetic is that it has picked up so much contamination as it cleans the engine, that unless filtered by an extremely fine filter, it is no longer useful. No matter how well you filter an organic oil it still will have lost its lubricating qualities in far less miles.
    To answer your question about changing oil too frequently, My personal race car used to get it's oil changed once about every mile and a half. (700hp chevy v8) On a draster engine,(7,000hp) once each time down the quarter mile.Think you were changing yours too much?
    Anyone with real experience can examine your engine (torn down) and give you a real reason it failed. (not only what failed but why)
    As a racer, and inspector these are essential skills.
    It is very uncommon for a valve seat to fall out of a cylinder head unless the engine was badly overheated. Even with one seat gone, the engine should run but run poorly.
    If the new engine is knocking, get authorization from the company to remove the oil pan and check the rod and main bearings. If not, have the oil pressure checked. If it's low, that tells you the same thing but won't tell you which one. But then, it almost does not matter because it needs to be returned. This is one that has me curious. If you were not so far away I'd come there just out of curiosity. Sorry to hear that you still have problems!





  • msgilland Aug 13, 2010

    Giving you another engine update. Now on 4th engine in liberty almost 108,000 miles on 02 liberty now. 3 engines from Powertrain products in less then a year. the first engine with them they said it WAS THE HEAD SEALS I have the part here it is in about 15 pieces. This is the one had about 11k on it. Put 2nd engine in it which he said was knocking after got to temperature. so 0 on that one. Powertrain was saying it was mechanics fault for not cleaning it out good. so he sent it back to them and then sent me a 3rd engine. 1st 2 from tenessee. 3rd one from maryland and the head wasnt plastic like there other 2 was it looked like a totally different engine. So after 2 months of no vehicle between the mechanic and engine place i get it back. now i bought a cps like you recommended and got him to replace that. Started it up an engine light on. it was the 02 sensor on side that had the metal problems. They put it back in drove it home engine light on again. Same code 1/1 so i drove it about a week cause they are so backed up didnt have time to fix it. . So Made apt for following week to replace that. gas milage sucked big time at 12mpg missing like crazy especially at lights. had to put in neutral to keep running but ran fine except when stopped. i got another code same 02 sensor just saying headed one now. But we drove it so he could do oil change so i got 500 miles on it and left with him to change oil and o2 sensor. Now have about 1200 miles on it and so far so good!! No word from powertrain on there 2nd engine so he called while i was there to see if they was paying his labor for 3rd engine. they said engine came back clean was the same problem as first engine from them so they was mailing him out another check for labor. now i had to pay $1,000 labor for there first engine. they had to pay him $2,000 to put in 2 engines.

  • Richard Scordino Aug 13, 2010

    Glad to hear that you finally have the problem resolved. I looked into the design of that engine and overall am not thrilled with any of it.
    Likely though since you were getting your engines from the same source, someone there is making the same build error over and over, or they got a "bad run" of one certain component.
    If I was closer to you I would have loved to examine your engine...Lots can be learned from failures. Too many techs are "parts changers" which is fine if they want to remain average. Knowing the cause of a problem instead of just fixing the result is what leads to better repairs and sometimes even manufacturing changes.
    Keep in mind what I said about synthetics...they do work.
    Hope you get many years from the new engine!!!


  • msgilland Aug 16, 2010

    Think i said that wrong.. head seats.. the metal rings that go down in the head.... what ever that is called.lol. They said they had not had any problems with that engine...yet i get 2 bad ones from them. and when mechanic called them about it they said make sure you clean all the metal out of it or it will do it again. that is why they was blaming him til they got it back and it was clean. SO i am assuming my new engine starts with a new warranty again. now it is 4 years unlimiited miles. before was 3 years 100k. this has been a great inconvenience to me. Over 2 months with out a vehicle because of a defect in there engines.. if i have any problem with this one i think im gonna ask for a refund. thanks again for your help

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