Question about 1992 Geo Metro

3 Answers

The throttle body injector goes full on and floods the engine as soon as it starts.

After sitting for a while, it runs for a couple seconds and then dies. Only sprays fuel when it's cranking - key on, no fuel spraying and one wire reads 12V and the other open. Replaced entire top plate of the TB, so injector, injector connector, and pressure regulator have been changed. Checked EGR valve and temp sensor on the thermostat housing. Disconnected exhaust, same thing. Replaced ECU, still dumping so much fuel it floods.

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3 Answers

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  • Geo Master
  • 11,724 Answers

This vehicle has no mass air flow sensor , it uses a MAP sensor for speed density fuel control , My self I would hook up a scan tool an see what the block learn an integrator or showing , this is same as fuel trims on OBD2 vehicles I would also look at the map sensor voltage parameter ! A bad map sensor can cause a lot of fuel to dump into the engine ! Manifold Absolute Pressure MAP Sensors

Posted on Apr 20, 2015

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  • Geo Master
  • 20,706 Answers

The ECU does all that injection. which engine 3 or 4 cyl?
the 12vdc key on, tells me the INJ resistor block, is good.
and the spraying tells me the ECU has power and is injecting
cranking,
flooding has many causes. the tests are simple as is the tools to do them.. what to buy tools?
1: LOW engine compression, timing belt never changes and compression near 1/2 normal. 75psi not 150. cam is now retarded.
2: bad spark, (also now timed retarded due to #1 wrong above.
tune up time? this decade?
3: if those are ok, then and only then we attack the ECU and its inputs. (sorry cant burn fuel with no spark or dead engines)
Q1: can it start with cranking wide open throttle.?
Q2: Same as above but 5-10% throttle (right foot actions)
if yes, on Q2 then the ISC system is stuck closed.no starting air .
Q3: remove the fuel pump relay, pull it, now start engine with test fuel. it cant flood now) does it run perfect for 3 seconds and sound perfect. (it not see #1 and above using a timing light etc)
Ok it now runs on test fuel. for each application of test fuel.
when you insert the diagnostic jumper wire and crank for
5 seconds and release the key does the CEL lamp blink 12s
or other codes. if it does blink non 12s. you know why the ECU is
injecting wrong.
http://geometroforum.com/topic/638390/1/


if it keeps flooding and the ISC is working and you have proper air flow (new filter?) to the engine. then you check the ECU inputs.
ECT read correctly ? cold? (how cold is it (alaska or key west temps)
if the EDT reads -39F (wrong) it will flood, i promise!

Dead MAP sensor.?
fuel pressure not at spec? but the pressure is 2 times normal.
if yes, bingo. the FPR is bad or the return line blocked.
what matters is pressure, not swapping parts and hoping pressure is correct.
recap. True path
keep in mind flooding is. (most cases, ill skip cam belt here....)

  • no spark. or timed wrong, can't burn fuel with bad spark.
  • no air supply, cranking or idling. (ISC/IAC issues)
  • ECU over injecting for inputs wrong.
  • fuel pressure wrong, (way too high)
  • EGR stuck wide open?
  • Cat converter melted closed?

guessing your engine size, below is the schematic.

http://www.fixkick.com/INJECTORS/92-94EFI_001.jpg

i have tools, and in a case like this, i do the Q1 to Q3 fast.
then check spark timing in under 5min flat.
oh my gosh, the cam belt slipped. and timing is way off.
all that in 15min and really helps , finding the true path.

Posted on Apr 20, 2015

  • 34 more comments 
  • hotrod10 Apr 20, 2015

    Compression is good. It does run for a few seconds on fuel in the intake if the injector is disconnected. It will almost run with the throttle wide open. Temp sensor on thermostat housing reads 1900 ohms. Disconnected exhaust at manifold to no avail. Removed and checked EGR - valve is closed with no vacuum applied. Removed and plugged vacuum line to EGR - no help. Btw, it's the 3 cyl. Am I down to TPS or MAP sensor, or are there other sensors involved that could do it?

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    great, compression near 150, not 75, I like numbers, im a tech, and numbers matter big time. !! ok 1900 on the 2wire ECT not the 1 wire, guage sensor. 1900 is near. ~75F, that is good. the TPS is easy, cranking and key on voltage is about 1v, not 4v not 5v, so 5min test and bingo TPS is not cause of flooding , nor is it ISC as the 10% test fails. so its OVER INJECTING, and that is caused by 2 things, fuel pressure at 55psi, or ECU inputs bad. why not check pressure, ???? its first anytime injections are wrong. its a give, pressure is TOP cause,. btw the map is easy tool. (I have the tables in hand) but the MAP does not go on line unit engine starts. then the map works. (the ECU uses tables only to crank and get it to run) (it asuumes air low is good, and injects based on that and temperatures, (is that really the ECT your read), now map, just to show it works. MAP key on, 3.9v. , idle is 1.2v (cant get there now) 2.5v cranking (10"HG) so , now the map is easy with a 10buck volt meter.... leaving what, fuel pressure. 1992 1.0L engine, the fuel pressure port is located at. (btw nice testing so far !) this engine is speed density system TBI, and runs based on map,(once running) the fuel pressure is 25-33psi spec. and varies only by , Altitude on all TBI. so is a constant parked in drive way, for sure. 30 is average, at sealevel. not 60, the pump can do 60 , when dead headed,(shunted) see next post on how to do that..

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    where is the test port, most G engine cars TBI have a banjo bolt on the fuel filter. with a 6mm test port that the harbor freight tool fits. on some with no test port, summit racing sells a Russel, (or others) new banjo that has the test port, or on some there are simple clamps on this fuel supply line as seen below that the mechanic inserts a Tee fittig here and to a guage, 100psi guage,, that is next, aways. THE ECU can not measure pressure so if wrong it will inject wrong. (out side spec) i which i could give hands on help , i have the tools. (make sure the FPR vacuum hose does not drip fuel or the FPR is toast)

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    Runs on test fuel , ever change the cam belt ever. also when cranking wide open throttle , the injector must stop injecting, the ECU sees the TPS go near 4v (wot) and cuts fuel all EFI does that. if not the ECU is not seening the TPS .

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    the cam belt is 60k service point and fails near 100k so.... ever do one?

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    that is why I asked for compression numbers, as they prove this.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    step one is good engine, and that is 150 psi. at WOT, all 3 cylinders of this G10 engine, its a G10. and did you ever change spark timing, I ask that because 9 of 10 posters find spark wrong, so set it right ,hiding the cam slip fact. sad to watch that.. it is.. it usually goes way retarded. as crank attempts to out run the cam. (natural)

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    im reading this crazy on line FSM where they never say, the spec,. only that they must be equal. bad advice that. there must be near 150 and not at 1/2 that. ever.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    the engine is first. EFI and for sure TBI is not able to run and engine 1/2 sized. not ever. that is what retared timing does, shrinks the engine.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    why not post all 3 compression numbers, WOT.?

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    here is a link to a guy that did his own banjo bolt.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    http://www.suzuki-forums.com/suzuki-swif...

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    make a banjo or buy one from summit. (they are metric)

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    here is the other link by same person.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f...

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f...

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    there better a direct link. ( is better than damaging old fuel lines)

  • hotrod10 Apr 20, 2015

    Compression 135, 135, 132 (normal for my 6000 ft altitude). Checked timing belt. Will check MAP sensor and TPS. Based on your comment of the ECU not reading the MAP until the engine starts, my symtoms fit, as it does start and run for a couple seconds after it's had a chance to dry out.

  • hotrod10 Apr 20, 2015

    The 1900 ohms was on the 1-wire. The 2-wire sensor on the thermostat housing reads open across the pins and both pins to ground.

  • hotrod10 Apr 20, 2015

    A local parts store has a fuel pressure test kit on their loan-a-tool program. I should be able to splice a tee for it into the rubber hose part and just replace the whole hose when I'm done. Thanks for all your help, Entropy Slayer. (great handle, btw),

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    easy peasy, The ECT is open, why not use the ecu flash codes? IT WILL FLASH ECT DEAD Open (aka. too high voltage)

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    the ECU is in LIMPHOME< (called fails safe) and is now rich ash heck, retrard timing, and limited RPM, and idle controls cancels ( 100% flood city) OK 6000 feet. 0.83x 150 is 124psi. so compression IS GOOD. for 6k feet. i need oxy mask there,,, LOL.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    ECT will be per this scale.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/temp-sensors....

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    my est. 5000 ohms cold morning and warm sun up. 2000. ohms

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    why not use the paper clip>/?

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    ever time it acts up.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    or in this car the fuse empty is DLC diagnostic enable.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    http://geometroforum.com/topic/638390/1/

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    other suzuki cars are clip. its just a jumper. wire or fuse in all cases. pre 96

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 21, 2015

    we are down to , finally doing the CEL flash trick and Id bet the DTC error is ECT IS DEAD. and to expert posters, there a no over the counter scan tools sold, for any 92 suzuki. (suzuki never published the protocal) you have DTC error 14 or 15, Im sure, with Infinty ECT readings, for sure.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 21, 2015

    on most 1992 suzuki's the stinkn CEL lamp is burned out,or mostly removed by owners not wanting to have new buyer see lamp glow..... seen 100s like this. sad but true, seen black tape over light, and over bulb, or bulb missing, endless....

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 21, 2015

    Keyon, Cel glows. and put in DIAG SW fues. see flashes?

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 21, 2015

    here is updated drawing for metro ecu.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 21, 2015

    http://www.fixkick.com/INJECTORS/92-94EF...

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 21, 2015

    all key inputs and outputs shown ! ECT is a KEY input.

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  • Geo Master
  • 3,358 Answers

The air flow sensor doesn't give a linear response and needs circuitry to provide correction to the output for correct fuelling. On models with a single point injection the circuit board is sometimes housed in the throttle body along with the MAF sensor.

Maybe the MAF sensor or its corrective circuitry is faulty...

If too much fuel is being injected the injector is being told by the ECU for whatever reason to inject too much fuel. Assuming the parts you fitted are correct for your vehicle and including the ECU are in good order, the ECU isn't going to inject too much fuel just for fun so it indicates it is receiving incorrect information from one of it's sensors.

An Audi/VW mechanic once told me if the MAF is faulty their engines run better with the MAF disconnected.

Posted on Apr 19, 2015

  • 2 more comments 
  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    this car is metro, with G10 and TBI , and MAP sensor. only. all you say is true but not on any G10, ever. that is correct, on the G16B engines, if you unplug the MAF (it has one ) it runs in LIMPHOME mode , (ecu mimiced) and runs, proving sometimes that MAF is dead but a voltmeter on the MAF is all you need, on any non ford MAF. (non PWM) the output is not linear its logrithmic, the ECU converts that to air flow. (via tables) we have the voltages, its in the FSM. there is no need to guess, the meter will not lie to you.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    tricks like that can can fool you, say fuel pressure is 15psi (bad) and you unplug the maf, the mimic mode goes way rich hiding a bad pump or FPR, now you just bought a new suzuki $1000 map in vain. OOOPS.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 20, 2015

    the caredone maf is $400 rebuilt. and this car dont have one.

  • _-__-___-_
    _-__-___-_ Apr 21, 2015

    and this is no German car. (suzuki has its own software)

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kinda like adding dynamite to bbq lighter fluid.
hahah
ok,
try a tune up.
then try holding gas pedal to floor, this is super secret unflood mode and cuts fuel injection.

the issues why its flooding, not starting is normal for that condition.
so its:
1: bad need of tune up
and or
2: leaking injector.

the former you can figure out.
cap/wires/plugs /rotor, filters, there i said it.

or
this car has a viewable fuel injector
one an do 2 things with it.
key on five times , or 5 seconds on, not cranking
and other person looks down throttle body neck
yes, off comes the tube on top.
and makes sure the injectors dont dribble full time, key on.

or
the ECT is bad.

or dash pot is not opening at key on crank.

or
cold start, IAC is clogged.

complex it is,
it will take hard work to check everything.

http://carfix.stufftoread.com/
see flooding here.


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