Question about 1999 Dodge Intrepid

2 Answers

Engine back fire and shutting down.

I am a Nissan diesel technician and have a problem with a 1999 Dodge Intrepid. (who doesn't), Here it is :Have codes P0622 (Gen Field Circuit) & P01391 (loss of camshaft crank signal) they keep resetting after clearing. I am using a $4000. GENYSIS diagnostic tool to trouble shoot problem. Replaced both cam & crank sensors with no success. The engine still backfires and shuts off. Sometimes it will run great for a few seconds then start acting up. The GENYSIS shows the cam/crank signal to come and go about every 2 seconds. Can't believe it has
jumped timing because it has its moments of running great.Alternator shows to be putting out 13.4+- all the time. This is my 19 yo sons car and he is driving our minivan as a back-up. (not likeing it)

Thanks GREATLY
Terry Baker

Posted by on

  • 5 more comments 
  • trybker Apr 23, 2009

    Engine runs to well at times to have jumped time. Thanks

  • trybker Apr 24, 2009

    Thanks for the info. Here are some more facts on the diagnostics. As I mentioned I am using a very reliable tool to trouble shoot and also have hi-tech equipment to check the charging system. The GENISYS 2006 shows the target and actual voltages to match, and also no mis-fires on any cylinders. This problem has come and gone in the past, but now is here to stay.I am a certified tech for Nissan Diesel America , but very weak in the automotive field. (gas engine) I really appreciate your help with this problem. I am leaning toward a faulty PCM as you mentioned. As a guess, what do you think the chances are?



    Thanks Again

    Terry

  • trybker Apr 25, 2009

    Here is todays update. Replaced the PCM. Started and ran GREAT for 30 seconds, then started all over again when excellerated. This probably sounds stupid and I will be very embarrassed if this is the case, but I wonder if the fuel filter is plugged.As far as I know it has never been replaced (113000), bought the car used. Can you tell me where the filter is, I can not locate it. The HAYNES book says that it is behind the bumper cover, but the tank is mid-ship on the car.



    Hope I'm embarrassed

    Terry

  • trybker Apr 25, 2009

    Can you tell me if the filter can be removed and cleaned. Also if the back-firing is caused from lack of fuel, will set a cam/crank positioning sensor code? I pressured the tank while cranking and can get the car to idle, but not accelerate above 1200 rpm without problems. Have you heard of this problem, and do you think I'm on to something? Again, I appreciate your help and thoughts.



    Maybe relieved

    Terry

  • trybker Apr 25, 2009

    Do you know what the fuel pressure output would be. By the way this is a 2.7. I have the pump out of the tank and would like to bench check it.Also, where is the fuel pressure regulator on the engine?





    Thanks

    Terry

  • trybker Apr 25, 2009

    Replaced the fuel pump (new), and at first the problem was still there above 3100 rpm.This was a lot better than before , witch was just above a high idle. Code for cam/crank position came back. Here is the good part. It was 92 degrees outside so I turned on the A/C and the problem went to 3500 rpm. So I turned on the lights (high beam) and the problem went to 3900. I took it for a drive and after 5 minutes of hard running the situation cleared.(I'm not kidding) Can you think of an explanation. Perhaps an increase in the alternator output.I'm going to clear the code again and see what happens.

    You probably think I'm crazy, but what I told you is the truth.



    Thanks

    Terry Baker



  • trybker Apr 26, 2009

    At this posting the car is running fine. I want to thank you for your help and support.



    Greatly appreciated

    Terry

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2 Answers

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  • Master
  • 15,935 Answers

P0622 is for your alternator field not switching properly. This could be caused by a bad BCM(computer), a bad generator (or alternator, same thing), or a wiring problem.
I would check all of your wiring between your generator and your BCM. Check for any damaged or corroded wires. If all of your wires and connectors are good, I would recommend replacing your generator.

Im not liking the 13.4V while running. It shoult be at 14.5V

Have the alternator load tested at your local parts store for free.

If that checks out (or is within tolerable spec) A known problem in this vehicle is the voltage regulator. Because on this vehicle - it is located in the engine controller (BCM) -- controller (BCM) needs to be replaced.
Double check all connections at the battery cable. If good - time, to replace the controller. (especially if you are getting ghost codes like the P01391 cam/crank sensor code).

The engine uses the info from these sensors to tell the plugs the proper time to fire. if the input is bad (bad sensors or wiring FROM the sensors) the output will be just as bad - causing backfiring, and missing.... hoever if the sensors are new, and the wiring checks out - its the BCM that is being the bugger here.

BCM Wiring Diagrams
CLICK HERE 1
CLICK HERE 2
CLICK HERE 3
CLICK HERE 4

If you would like more prints - just let me know.

Also - to clear your codes, you can remove the + battery post, wait a minute, and re-connect.

I have given you alot of info. If you need clarification on anything - please use the "Continue working with this expert" option so we are connected later.

Thanks for using FixYA :D

Posted on Apr 23, 2009

  • 13 more comments 
  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 23, 2009

    Sorry - i had BCM on the brain from the last question... you should be looking at the PCM Powertrain Command Module

  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 23, 2009

    The Electronic Voltage Regulator (EVR) is not a separate component. It is actually a voltage regulating circuit located within the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). The EVR is not serviced separately. If replacement is necessary, the PCM must be replaced.

    The amount of DC current produced by the generator is controlled by EVR circuitry contained within the PCM. This circuitry is connected in series with the generators second rotor field terminal and its ground.

    Voltage is regulated within the PCM on the NGC vehicles, to control the strength of the rotor magnetic field. The EVR circuitry monitors system line voltage at the PDC and calculated battery temperature or inlet air temperature sensor .It then determines a target charging voltage. If sensed battery voltage is lower than the target voltage, the PCM feeds the field winding until sensed battery voltage is at the target voltage. A circuit in the PCM cycles the feed side of the generator field at 250 times per second (250Hz), but has the capability to feed the field control wire 100% of the time (full field) to achieve the target voltage. If the charging rate cannot be monitored (limp-in), a duty cycle of 20% is used by the PCM in order to have some generator output.

  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 23, 2009

    The more Im looking at these schematics - the more confident that your PCM is bad.



  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 23, 2009
  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 23, 2009

    Cam8

    Cam9

    Cam10

    Cam11

    Cam12

    Cam13



    This seems like a lot of the same schematics - but you didnt indicate the engine size - so i have included all of them.



    See the top of the print for your engine size.



  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 24, 2009

    As I said in one of my additional comments - I am leaning toward the PCM failure.

    1. beacuse it is intermittant

    2. the ghost sensor codes



    If you have done everything short of replacing the PCM - id say within a 90% certainty that is where your problem lies.



    Double check for bare/broken wiring especially where it enters the firewall.



    To save a little bit of $$ - you may try to locate a used one on eBay or a local junkyard.



    You will be charged a core charge at a parts store. all they do is refurbish them, and sell to someone else.



    Thanks again for using FixYa - hope the information provided was useful!!

  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 25, 2009

    The Fuel Filter on your vehicle is Located on the top of the fuel pump module inlet.

    On you car - thats in the gas tank.









    I know the '97 you can access thru the trunk - but if yours is mid-car...the tank has to be dropped.







    The fuel filter mounts to the frame rail in front of the fuel tank. The inlet and outlet ends of the filter are marked for installation purposes. Install the fuel filter making certain that it is properly orientated.





    NOTE
    The fuel filter is part of the fuel pressure regulator mounted on the fuel pump module.





    1. Before servicing the vehicle, refer to the Precautions section.


    2. Properly relieve the fuel system pressure.


    3. Lower the fuel tank.


    4. Remove or disconnect the following:



      Negative battery cable

      Purge and vent lines

      Fuel line from the pressure regulator

      Filter/regulator by pushing in the locking tab, turning the regulator to unlock it and pulling the it straight up




    To install:



    1. Push the fuel filter/regulator into the fuel pump module and turn to lock it into position.

    2. Connect the fuel lines and install the tank.

    3. Start the engine, check for leaks and repair if necessary.







    Sorry - thought you had mentioned the fuel pump earlier - but re-reading your posts - i dont see it. Must have been another question - they tend to all run together on some days.



    Let me know if you need more info.



  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 25, 2009

    CLICK HERE for a rather lengthy article and how-to regarding checking fuel flow and pressure.

  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 25, 2009

    Well - if you pressurized the tank - there is a fuel delivery problem. Pump or filter.

    The filter is removeable... and not much at the parts store.

    Best bet to just replace it.... after going through all the trouble to get to it :D



    Most causes of backfires in the exhaust system can be addressed by troubleshooting the reason for the air to fuel ratio imbalance. The solution usually involves checking for vacuum leaks, changing the airflow sensor, oxygen sensor, or fuel filter to ensure the fuel mixture system is functioning properly.



    A common backfire situation occurs when there is a small leak in the air injection system that feeds the exhaust system. This can cause unburned fuel to explode suddenly. One of the most common causes is a stuck or faulty air intake or gulp valve near the exhaust manifold.



    Backfiring can also occur with a sudden drop in fuel pressure. This may be due to a faulty fuel pump or a plugged fuel filter. Correcting problems in the fuel system usually resolves these issues.



    Incorrect ignition timing to the spark plugs is another cause of backfire. Adjusting the ignition distributor, if the engine is so equipped, may resolve this problem. Adjusting engine timing is not difficult and can be done with a timing light by following the timing adjustment procedure for your car.



    However, a vehicle that is not timed properly will not idle, run or operate correctly and will often backfire rapidly. On newer cars you will need to scan the pcm to check for CKS (crankshaft angle sensor) related trouble codes.



    Maintenance



    To prevent backfires there are several things you can do:

    Change the fuel filter as needed, the fuel filter is a vital part of your fuel system and can cause a backfire(s) if the filter is clogged and not changed regularly. A bad fuel filter can cause low fuel pressure creating a perfect situation for a backfire to occur. Changing the filter is simple and can save gas with improved performance of your vehicle's engine reducing the occurrence of backfires.



    Tune up and service your fuel injection system to follow the maintenance schedule for your particular car. This ensures correct fuel consumption with the correct amount of emissions. Fuel that is not burned completely will leave ample opportunity for a backfire to occur. These maintenance requirements are associated with other systems on your vehicle. Avoiding maintenance on your car can increase the risk of backfiring and other system malfunctions.





    Im here if you need more clarification.

  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 25, 2009

    WIKIPEDIA's take on Back Firing - CLICK HERE

  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 25, 2009

    Fuel filter removal from pump




    1. Remove the fuel line from the pressure regulator. Remove the filter/regulator by pushing in on the locking tab on the filter as you turn the regulator to unlock it. Then, pull it straight up.

    2. Push the new fuel filter into the fuel pump module. Turn to lock it in place. Connect the fuel lines, and then you can reinstall the fuel tank. Check for leaks when you start the engine on your Dodge Intrepid.

  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 25, 2009

    fuel pressure regulator is actually part of the fuel pump (thats why its a $230 part!!

    Right after the fuel filter.

    See pic...






    Fuel pressure should be 30-80 (cant recall the exact pressure for that vehicle)... but 30 should be sufficient!!



    Remember to check out THIS PAGE for great fuel line testing tips.



    Thanks for using FixYa!! Please "accept" my answers if you found them useful.



    As always Im here if there are any further questions.

  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 25, 2009

    Found the fuel pressure... should be between 50 and 60 psi.



  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 25, 2009

    well... i know most sensors need to cycle (heat/cool) 3-4 times for the PCM to callibrate properly.

    i made the wrong assumption that you knew this.



    You will notice some degree of idle speed decrease with increased electrical load just as you do now. That energy has to come from somewhere. It will only occur when there is high electrical load though.


    (That is also why you should set your idle speed with headlights and heater fan on (or some combination of electical load).

    The IDLE SPEED ACTUATOR regulates the position of the throttle valve plate(s) to compensate for additional loads on the engine, like the air conditioner. It measures engine RPM readings, compares them to the reference RPM in the engine-control computer memory and adjusts the idle air by-pass

    You will see more load variance with the A/C compressor cycling on/off though.


    The idle air control motor (IAC) is attached to the throttle body.









    It is an electric stepper motor. The PCM adjusts engine idle speed through the idle air control motor to compensate for engine load, coolant temperature or barometric pressure changes. The throttle body has an air bypass passage that provides air for the engine during closed throttle idle. The idle air control motor pintle protrudes into the air bypass passage and regulates airflow through it.

    The PCM adjusts engine idle speed by moving the IAC motor pintle in and out of the bypass passage. The adjustments are based on inputs the PCM receives. The inputs are from the throttle position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, coolant temperature sensor, MAP sensor, vehicle speed sensor and various switch operations (brake, park/neutral, air conditioning). When engine rpm is above idle speed, the IAC is used for the following functions:



    ** Off-idle dashpot



    **Deceleration air flow control



    **A/C compressor load control (also opens the passage slightly before the compressor is engaged so that the engine rpm does not dip down when the compressor engages)



    The throttle position sensor mounts to the side of the throttle body. The sensor connects to the throttle blade shaft. The TPS is a variable resistor that provides the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) with an input signal (voltage). The signal represents throttle blade position. As the position of the throttle blade changes, the resistance of the TPS changes.

    The PCM supplies approximately 5 volts to the TPS. The TPS output voltage (input signal to the Powertrain Control Module) represents throttle blade position. The TPS output voltage to the PCM varies from approximately 0.6 volt at minimum throttle opening (idle) to a maximum of 4.5 volts at wide-open throttle.

    Along with inputs from other sensors, the PCM uses the TPS input to determine current engine operating conditions. The PCM also adjusts fuel injector pulse width and ignition timing based on these inputs.

    Give this a test!!



    The Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) can be tested with a digital voltmeter. The center terminal of the sensor is the output terminal.



    1. With the ignition switch in the ON position, check the output voltage at the center terminal wire of the connector. Check the output voltage at idle and at wide open throttle (WOT). At idle, TPS output voltage should be greater then 0.6 volts. At wide-open throttle, TPS output voltage should be less than 4.5 volts. The output voltage should gradually increase as the throttle plate moves slowly from idle to WOT. Check for spread terminals at the sensor and PCM connections before replacing the TPS.


    Sounds like you had more than 1 problem!!



    Crossing my fingers for you :D





  • blueextc3221
    blueextc3221 Apr 26, 2009

    You're welcome.

    Please accept this answer so the funds get distributed properly.



    Thanks again for using fixya.

    Hope to see you again if other problems arise.

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The coil DTCs are sometimes a byproduct of cam/ crank signals beingalmost out-of-sync. It's a self-diagnostic bug that's built into thesoftware that sometimes surfaces in times when (perhaps) the power isbeing shut off to the coil just as it's being evaluated. Loss of cam/crank sync can certainly do that.
Wait. I have an easy earlytest. Disconnect the cam sensor. The engine will start and run withoutit, but will require longer crank time. Should it start and continue torun longer than before (indefinitely, actually), you likely have eithera bad signal from the cam sensor or its timing is reaching the outsideof the usable window for engine management.
If this works, you can rest assured there is a timing problem or camshaft position sensorsignal problem at work. Running on the crank sensor signal alone limitsengine RPMs, but the engine will run pretty-much normally in the lowRPM ranges.
At that point, you need to determine where theproblem lies. A lab scope is a wonderful device for observing cam/crank square wave signals. A dual-trace unit can put the two together,in the same order they are being produced. This can be a breakthroughfor determining whether it's a bad signal or the engine is out of time.
Ifwe have to use probability (we do), I would expect the cam(s) to be outof time. I've never seen a cracked flexplate (flywheel, where cranksignal is generated) on one of these units. It happens in Caravan,where the flexplate breaks at the center, rotates about 12 degrees andthen locks back up.
2.7 engines in Intripid do have a shorthistory of losing cam timing. It's not common, usually is from beingmis-timed to begin with (water pump replacement, et.al). I suggest youdo the cam sensor disconnect test and go from there.

Posted on Apr 23, 2009

  • Nate Stansfield
    Nate Stansfield Apr 23, 2009

    I would also check the wiring harness from the pcm up to the coil packs and to than wiring to cam and crank sensors

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