Question about 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee

5 Answers

K & N filter

Why do you think a K & N filter will set a lean code P0171?? There are many reasons for this code, faulty O2 sensor, intake leak, ECT issue, fuel pressure low and so on.

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  • yadayada
    yadayada Sep 10, 2008

    If you follow the instruction and oil the filter properly you will not have any problems, they flow much better than a stock filter, and those paper filters are very expensive, what is an average cost at your dealers parts dept? $25, That is what it was for my Corvette, I have run K &N filters on most of my many cars, most had MAF sensors, never once had and issue, I however have seen dirt on the heated wire of the MAF sensor from a paper filter on many ocassions.



    I am a Ford cetified emission system and electronics master technician, also an ASE master tech, I was the lead tech for a large Ford dealer for 20 years, and 10 at a GM dealer, have a huge expeariance base to draw on, so I am not talking out my ****.

  • yadayada
    yadayada Sep 11, 2008

    Fuel trim? do you know what that is??

  • yadayada
    yadayada Sep 11, 2008

    Hum it seems the problem is only with the Toyota, never saw it on any American models, in fact the number of MAF failures is almost zero, 1 or 2 that I remember, I have seen allot of problems on the Japanese lines myself, some of the dealers I worked for sold other lines. As far as fuel trim goes who cares, it is like the sun, it shines and all is well, never mind the principal of nuclear fusion that drives it, same with fuel trim, all I need to know is what makes it stop working correctly, and not switch as it should from lean to rich and so on to maintain ideal fuel air ratio and give good fuel economy and acceptable drive-ability. I myself love guys like you that brand a product as bad for everyone because of a narrow experience base with one line of cars. K&N is a great product aside from a little issue with one manufacturer

  • yadayada
    yadayada Sep 12, 2008
  • yadayada
    yadayada Sep 15, 2008

    Healthy discussion is very important, I believe it is how things get fixed, I am not in a competition, just didn't understand what seemed like a very biased narrow view of a great product, sorry to offend you, just wanted a discussion between two car nuts about aftermarket parts, have a good one.

  • yadayada
    yadayada Sep 15, 2008

    I am curious about wheather Toyota PCM programming burns off the MAF heated wire when the key is firts turned on, GM and Ford do that, never saw a dirt issue on the element of Ford, did see it on early GM systems.

  • yadayada
    yadayada Sep 15, 2008


    ASESUPERTECH who set you up as judge and jury, we are just having a little discussion about car parts, I tend to be a little skeptical of some things I read, like the K & N filter problem, I ask questions, that makes for a good tech, lots of questions, and being a ASE Master tech was just to get 10% over in my union wage scale, could care less other than that, I have never overhauled a tranmission in my life, but I was certified by ASE, all I am saying is allot of paper does not always mean a great tech out in the shop. I was liked by most of the people I worked with, with the exception of some of the the heavy duty tech's, why? because my boss mostly wanted me free to diagnose serious problems, but seldom did I do the repair unless it took less than a few hours, I told him I did not mind doing the work but he said no. Sorry you feel the way you do, have you looked at the other 1000 solutions I have given? was just having a little fun with the speaker fix, had a few to many bears, sorry did not mean to offend!

  • yadayada
    yadayada Oct 13, 2008

    Where does this info come from about the K&N filtering is 1/2 less effective than paper filters? I worked at a Ford dealerr for 20 years, saw lots of mustangs and others with K&N's, never saw a problem, but that doesn't mean there is not some issue, we have hashed this out already, did you contact K&N on these issues and see what they have to say about what you stated in your comments, I will call the tech staff and let them defend themselves, allot of stuff about cars is rumor, like putting a battery on a concrete floor will make it go dead.

  • yadayada
    yadayada Oct 14, 2008

    Hey T ED, I just never saw this issue with any Ford, that does not mean it never happens, do you think that the position of the filter may affect this, some maf sensors are close to the air filter box, others like on my Corvette are a fair distance from the filter, and yes to much oil would most likely get into the maf, but all this has been interesting, one good thing if I ever have a maf code I will clean it before replacing, as all my cars have K&N's in them. Have a great day.

    1 last note, I have learned ALLOT on this site, and that I just love!

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I don't know if you guys are still on this topic but all cars can have issues with the K&N filters, the newer rangers have that exact issue and so does the focus, probably a dozen more that I don't recall off the top of my head, not only are we talking about the oil that is on the filter itself but also you are changing the airs dynamics when it enters the MAFS, say the stock air box has a velocity horn in it but the new filter does not, that will have slowed the air down and made it more turbulent, the ECU has preset air flow charts for the MAFS readings and changing the way the air flows will mess with the ECU fuel map.
also don't forget that since the K&N filters at best filter less then half as well as a paper filter there is the issue of debris collecting within the intake track and again causing issues with air flow,

Posted on Oct 13, 2008

  • Edward Settles
    Edward Settles Oct 14, 2008

    it's a well known fact, how does a filter lose restriction while keeping the same surface area?

    here is a link to a report on the different filters,
    http://home.stny.rr.com/jbplock/ISO5011/...

    K&N knows about the issues, I am on a couple of forums and people have called K&N about it, and it has been remarked that the issues was fixed by replacing the stock airbox, no manufacturer put doubts about their product out there on the package, and on some cars it's no real issue, especially in areas that have low dust levels,

    not really interested in arguing about it, just thought I would put in a view that was not expressed before


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Hey EmissionWiz: COOL YOUR JETS. I too agree with Toyotaed, he is very, very right.
What is it with you? Do you think that God came down & has now personally granted you supreme knowledge? ...Jeeeeeeeeez...Guys like you with an ASE cert think that you know it ALL. Whuff. You pass a few tests and have a few years under your belt and all of a sudden you are single-handedly reinventing the wheel, for no apparent reason, without success. Duh. You are supposed to be HELPING PEOPLE here, not FLAMING the helpers. If you put more of you so-called vast knowledge to work for you, you should be a millionaire on this board. But, since you only have three (3) chats, and nothing worth a poo on any of them, I can see why...Your assistance posts like "pull the door panel & change the speakers" just STINKS to high heaven. You were a LOT OF HELP to that poor kid....NOT!
You silly, silly fool.
You should be REMOVED from this board because you are a stinking PRIMA-DONNA.
I'll bet your co-workers hate you at your dealership, too.

Posted on Sep 13, 2008

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I agree with toyota ed i have also seen the problem with the k&n filters and also in our shop people bring in there cars with the KN and we tell them there is an up charge to service the filter. and they say that they will take care of it . and the next time there in it still hasnt been changed or there in with a driveabilty problem.( K&N not good for the average JOE)

Posted on Sep 11, 2008

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  • paul erickson
    paul erickson Sep 15, 2008

    emissionwizthat was a great video it shows that K&N has their stuff together.
    but as i said before its not for everyone .

    can i ask a question
    when you do service on a persons car do you clean their K&N filter at no extra charge. or how do you handle it?
    thanks
    paul



  • paul erickson
    paul erickson Oct 14, 2008

    i have seen a couple of problems with the k&n

    the first was the customer never oiled the filter after cleaning. then i could see it being less efective than paper.

    second issue was lack of maintence (not cleaning the filter)

  • paul erickson
    paul erickson Oct 26, 2008

    i was just fighting a 98 chevy with driveability problems and found this about a factor service bulliton from gm on aftermarket oiled air filters

    mass air flow problem

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91 blazer not getting gas . Can't hear fuel pump kick in .Had fuel pump and filter changed a few months ago. ( 4.3 S-10) Bubba

Posted on Sep 10, 2008

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Because I see this situation every week. I am a Toyota/Scion Service Manager.
On Toyota engines, seeing a P-0171 is a fuel trim code; lean condition...It would be rare to see what you are mentioning above, sorry....

Re: K & N: The K & N users think that the K & N is just soooooooo good. But, it is not the FILTER that causes the problem; it is the OIL that they overload it with to trap the dirt. The oil is then sucked into the intake tube, and what is next in line? The mass air flow sensor. The oil then congreates on the sensor wires, and throws a P0171 fuel trim code because the wires are no longer reading the proper air velocity. I clean the sensor, reset the light, do a drive cycle & then watch the fuel trims walk right back to specs on the scan tool. Hope this clarifys my point..
Ed

Posted on Sep 10, 2008

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  • Toyota Ed Sep 11, 2008

    Calm down.

    I am not here to do battle with qualified people like you. I, like you, ame here to HELP people, not to start a "war of words"...I, too have over 30 years in the auto business. I'm also a ASE Certified Master Tech, a Toyota MDT, and a long list of other creds, including the Number One Customer Satisfaction Dealership in America with Toyota in 2000 & 2001, and I was also the Number One Dealership in 1994 with Nissan. I no longer have any room for my plaques...SO, I too am not "talking out of my ***"...Those lofty creds aside, I feel qualified, in the sense of Customer Satisfaction, to explain why K & N is not a "great" choice, because the users load it up with oil, ignoring the directions. Looking back thru my data, I have, in 2008 alone, serviced exactly 114 vehicles with a

    P-0171 Lean code. In EVERY case, the MAF was cleaned, the codes reset, and a drive cycle was performed. Seven of these vehicles was also sold an air filter.

    FYI, your "fuel trim" comment to me was not appreciated. I could go on and on in this forum explaining exactly what a short fuel trim vs a long fuel trim does, and burden you with so much technical data your coveted ASE patch would spin around on your arm.

    But, in order to satisfy your query, here you go:

    FUEL TRIM basically refers to the feedback compensation value compared to base injection time. Fuel trim has both "short-term" fuel trim, and "long-term" fuel trim. This being said, SHORT-TERM fuel trim is the short-term fuel comp used to keep the A/F ratio at its ideal theoretical value.The signal form the heated O2 indicates whether the A/F is RICH or LEAN compared to the theroretical value, which triggers a reduction in fuel volume if the A/F is rich, and an increase if the A/F is lean. Of course, if the MAF is compromised (DIRTY), this throws the abovementioned fuel trim idea right out the window. And, if both the short and long trims are rich or lean beyond a certain value, is throws a P0171 (Lean), or a P0172 (rich). Does this help you? Oh, by the way, your orig post mentioned a lot of stuff that "could" be the culprit. In actuality, the following list should make YOUR parts dept happy: PCV HOSE, Air Induction System, Injectors, MAF, Coolant Temp Sensor, Fuel Pressure, Fuel leakeage, O2 sensor, Heated portion of O2 sensor, ECM, piston rings, valves, etc, etc,

    ad infinitum....

    In short, if you have a dirty MAF, you the feed faulty data to the ECM.

    BTW, our 3-stage "paper" air filters are $17.44 each, plus tax.

    Have a nice day.

  • Toyota Ed Sep 15, 2008

    OK, I watched the video. Really, I have no desire to dice about with you over this issue. I was not going to post back, but, I guess I owe you to respond, as you kindly provided the link to the video...



    As I mentioned previously, I see dirty MAFs all of the time. I clean them, and they are returned to service. I have replaced one MAF in the last 5 years, & that was on a 95 Tacoma 4 cylinder. Our MAFs rarely fail. The sensor that was replaced had internally failed & was NOT contaminated at all. Clean as a whistle.... But, in watching the propaganda you provided, it appears that K & N think that they have a bad rep over this issue, and, IMHO, possibly so, because I have personally observed a filthy K & N that was also dripping with oil. So, ignorance of the mfgr's directions is really the issue here. Nothing more.



    That being said, I feel compelled to mention that I have a K & N filter protecting our Scott Shafiroff 540 C.I. engine in our 69 Camaro drag car, over top of a Holley 4500..... SO, do I like K & N? Sure. GREAT product. BUT, MISUSE of the product MAY cause problems.

    That is my only complaint re K & N.

    Are we on the same page?

    I propose a truce. Lets drop this infantile dialog.

    Regards,

    Ed

  • Toyota Ed Sep 15, 2008

    Agreed. Perhaps betwixt you & I we def could make a big difference together here.

    Feel free to contact me if you ever need any help.

    No offense taken. Wish you the BEST!

  • Toyota Ed Sep 15, 2008

    I do not think so, but, I will research that & get back to you tomorrow. Headed out for a beer.

    Done for the day!

  • Toyota Ed Oct 14, 2008

    I have stepped off of this thread, but, I guess that I am going to have to step back on....



    First, "ASE supertech" if you really are one, nobody asked for your inane and uncalled for commentary. Where are YOUR posts and solutions that Em Wiz & myself have garnered? You have NO CREDS. So, keep your 2 cents to yourself, tovarich. We do NOT need pizdas such as you here. Keep it up, and I will get Lauren to kick your dupa off of this board. DA?



    Virgils: WOW. What a cool link. For those dudes to go thru all of that govno & $$$ to determine the functionality of a filter is awesome. BUT, that being said, I have a 540 Scott Shafiroff Camaro and a twin turbo Supra, both protected by K & N, no issues. But, again, we are not talking about 2 "normal" cars here, these babies are the fastest cars in town, period. I would put a K & N in my Lotus Elite if I could get one to fit. The isssue that I was discussing with the Wiz was the P-0171, and is quite common to my Corolla/Matrix products...And, my experience with K & N owners is lack of proper maintenance/usage of the K & N product, re-read above. I ain't slapping K & N, just the zatnizdas that think that "a little oil is good, a LOT must be better"...

    The issue does exist with Ford? Interesting. Hey, EmWiz, look into this for me, can ya? Lets do some snooping here. We owe it to ourselves. Good post, Virgils. Keep me & EmWiz up on this.



  • Toyota Ed Oct 14, 2008

    Come to think of it, Toy cars with the P-0171... the MAFs ARE closer to the air box. Hmmmm. Maybe we are on to something here... Agreed, great stuff here.

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Replace or remove cat.


Possible causes
- Intake air leaks
- Faulty front heated oxygen sensor
- Ignition misfiring
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- Exhaust gas leaks
- Incorrect fuel pressure
- Lack of fuel
- Faulty Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor
- Incorrect Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) hose connection Help with this Tech notes
If the P0171 is combined with the P0174 code, it's very likely that the problem is caused by an intake leak. If there are no intake leaks, the next step is to replaced the air filter and clean the air flow meter. If the problem persist the front oxygen (O2) sensor may need to be replaced.
The P0171 code could also be caused may be caused by one or more of the following: debris on MAF sensor causing an incorrect reading, improper oil level, low or high fuel pressure or Engine Control Temperature (ECT) Sensor reading inaccurate.

Read more: http://www.helpforcars.net/obd_codes/p0171_chevrolet.html#ixzz3tjvehfyV

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P0171 - System Too Lean Bank 1 Share
1 ' Add Comment Possible causes
- Intake air leaks
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- Ignition misfiring
- Faulty fuel injectors
- Exhaust gas leaks
- Incorrect fuel pressure
- Lack of fuel
- Faulty Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor
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What does this mean? Tech notes
If the P0171 is combined with the P0174 code, it's very likely that the problem is caused by an intake leak. If there are no intake leaks, the next step is to replaced the air filter and clean the air flow meter. If the problem persist the front oxygen (O2) sensor may need to be replaced.
What does this mean? When is the code detected?
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- The amount of mixture ratio compensation is too small. (The mixture ratio is too lean.)
Possible symptoms
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With the Air/Fuel Mixture Ratio Self-Learning Control, the actual mixture ratio can be brought closely to the theoretical mixture ratio based on the mixture ratio feedback signal from the heated oxygen sensors 1. The Engine Control Module (ECM) calculates the necessary compensation to correct the offset between the actual and the theoretical ratios.
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Possible causes
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Tech notes
If the P0171 is combined with the P0174 code, it's very likely that the problem is caused by an intake leak. If there are no intake leaks, the next step is to replaced the air filter and clean the air flow meter. If the problem persist the front oxygen (O2) sensor may need to be replaced.

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- Fuel injection system does not operate properly.
- The amount of mixture ratio compensation is too small. (The mixture ratio is too lean.)

Possible symptoms
- Engine Light ON (or Service Engine Soon Warning Light)
- Excessive Fuel Consumption


P0171 Chrysler Description
With the Air/Fuel Mixture Ratio Self-Learning Control, the actual mixture ratio can be brought closely to the theoretical mixture ratio based on the mixture ratio feedback signal from the heated oxygen sensors 1. The Engine Control Module (ECM) calculates the necessary compensation to correct the offset between the actual and the theoretical ratios.

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